Methanol, Isopropyl, Aldehyde and Acetone

[ginandtonic]

Had an interesting talk with a guy named Rob,that has his own Distillery, and new his shit.
At a chanced meeting, while camping, I offered Rob a taste of my "Gin" for some feedback.
My Gin = Tomato paste wash, then Stripping run through 5 Starpot still, then put 3 of these stripping runs through T500 for a Spirit Run.
With Spirit run, im not shy with making what I believe are pretty savage cuts to keep the best hearts.
My gin then used these hearts, chucked in some basics ( not important at this stage ) and ran through the pot still again.
While the taste was generally good. There was no denying the initial wif of " metho " ( as described by another fellow ) and that " unclean" taste of something that should not be there. I did Not filter the finished product ( like most people I guess, I am trying to distill a product that does not require this step, but might have to bite the bullet at this point ) Anyway, back to the story.
Rob has a glass. Smell, taste....
Pretty much says, that if I am using sugar, its ging to be hard / impossible to get away from the underlying flavours of things that should not be there ( read Subject Line )
and that I really need to look at Grains as a starting base.
After I touched base with him again, he said via message.
I am in no means an expert in some of the newer was concoctions, but whatever mash you are doing, I recommend having a good look at the science of the sugars that are being fermented, and keeping yeast happy, so that you can minimise the production of ( subject line ) - All strong flavours, that are hard to get rid of.
As always, looking for feedback / suggestions / etc.
How much of my issues is because of the " mash " or is it my gear ? Distillation process - combination of both :o
Thanks,
Craig

[BigRig]

It is hard to say without tasting your product but he is right with sugar washes having that "sugarhead burn". Good cuts (and filtering if thats your thing) will help to clean up the spirit but you will always get some burn. You dont get the burn from AG or all molly but it is a lot more work and more $$$. Sugar washes serve a purpose in home hobby distilling, its cheap, easy and fast. Perfect for beginners.

Did the distiller drink your offering and enjoy it, ask for another ?

[howard]

like bigusrigus said, it's hard to tell unless we taste your neutral, which is where i presume the chemical flavours/smell (Methanol, Isopropyl, Aldehyde and Acetone) would come from?
it's a shame we can't all meet and swap neutral to compare with other peoples samples.
i used to make savage cuts when i started, i thought my neutral was ok, but realised my neutral was smeared when i upgraded my still and tasted the neutral off that.
have you tried an FFV?, at least it has some wheat in it.
i only did the TPW once, and wasn't keen.

not forgetting that there is a few other areas to cause off tastes, some botanicals can make gin taste awful if overdone.
i have tasted about 10 x craft distillery gins recently, and only 2 were palatable to me.
two of them were really bad, one went crazy with the cassia, one tasted like it had been strained through a bail of hay. :?

[The Stig]

Who said we can’t meet up , there have been local gatherings been going on for years .
Oh and Monty Python might have a copyright on bigusrigus it was that bigusdickus :laughing-rolling:

[ginandtonic]

Thanks BigRig,
I need to try some grains ( AG )
Can you tell me more about Molly ?
Cheers Howard,
Going to try FFV !
Can you suggest an Upgrade - away from my T500 that will give a better result.
Naturally there are lots of options,( and very expensive ones ) but what would be a " minimum " step in the right direction ? Perhaps what you progressed to that gave you better results ?
Regards,
Craig ( Gin And Tonic )

[BigRig]

Thanks BigRig,
I need to try some grains ( AG )
Can you tell me more about Molly ?
Cheers Howard,
Going to try FFV !
Can you suggest an Upgrade - away from my T500 that will give a better result.
Naturally there are lots of options,( and very expensive ones ) but what would be a " minimum " step in the right direction ? Perhaps what you progressed to that gave you better results ?
Regards,
Craig ( Gin And Tonic )

Molly is molasses so not really going to help you with your gin journey.

Point i was making, a rum with 100% molasses will not have the burn you get with a 50/50 molasses and sugar wash.

[BigRig]

Also worth asking,

what yeast are you using ?
Do you have a column extension on the t500?

[howard]

Thanks BigRig,
I need to try some grains ( AG )
Can you tell me more about Molly ?
Cheers Howard,
Going to try FFV !
Regards,
Craig ( Gin And Tonic )

the cheap wheat bran a few folk use for FFV is in the woolies breakfast cereal section (usually hidden at floor level :smile: )

[ginandtonic]

Thanks again gents.
No, I am not using an extension for T500, BigRig - stock standard with standard packing.
Also using Lowan instant dried yeast from woolies.
Gin & Tonic

[ginandtonic]

Also BigRig,
I do have a 500mm s/s extension ( of a pot still riser ) I could use ?
Do I pack this also ?
Have a fair bit of copper mesh.
The T500 has the original packing, Minus a little bit, due to the fact there is a small amount of mesh, inserted into the bottom, just abouyt adaptor, to stop the packers falling out.
Not sure how to go about it exactly ?
Kind Regards
Gin and Tonic

[ginandtonic]

Image below

[BigRig]

If going for neutral i would use the extension and fill it up with copper mesh or stainless scrubbers.

Lowans yeast is cheap and good for flavour washes but maybe consider a cleaner neutral yeast like US-05. The guys might be able to suggest an Alternative.

[howard]

Also BigRig,
I do have a 500mm s/s extension ( of a pot still riser ) I could use ?
Do I pack this also ?
Have a fair bit of copper mesh.
The T500 has the original packing, Minus a little bit, due to the fact there is a small amount of mesh, inserted into the bottom, just abouyt adaptor, to stop the packers falling out.
Not sure how to go about it exactly ?
Kind Regards
Gin and Tonic

i don't know much about running the T500 with packed columns.
but if you do pack them with copper mesh (sold on the FSD site)....
a 500gm roll is about 9m long by 100mm.
i cut this roll into 4 x 2.25m lengths, which when rolled tightly by hand, fit nicely into a 2" column.
so this will fill 400mm of the column with 4 x 100mm rolls.
any gaps left in my columns are rammed with Mr Tuff S/S scrubbies from the big green shed.

[ed9362]

im also no expert but i did get some of my hearts from a kale sugar wash tested on a gas chromatograph.

it came back as pure ethanol except for the 5% water and a very small trace of propanol.
the spirit was double distilled on a basic pure distilling boka still.
chemically i don't see why your spirit should taste any different to any other spirit.

I also got him to test my foreshots, even that was almost exclusively ethanol with trace amounts of other chemicals, there was almost no methanol to speak of.

[The Stig]

What type of packing is in it ? And how often is the packing cleaned ?

[ginandtonic]

Wll thanks again guys !
OK Howard, I am going to do my next run with the extension - and Copper mesh as per your instructions. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
I assume you mean this extension on top of the original T500 colum that is packed with s/s and copper saddles ?
Big Rig - Im onto that alternative yeast :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Stig - Packing is a combination of S/S ( approx 90% ) and copper ( 10% ) saddles that came with it.
Cleaning ? I clean after every use, but just with some hot soapy water and a couple flush outs with clean water.
If I need more ? just say the word.
Regards,
Gin and Tonic

[Cafe]

I am new to all of this but felt I should chime in. My TPW single distilled is too sweet, distilled again (both runs on a T500 run at 52 degrees and most important the column rinsed each time. I initally was not rinsing the column and I was getting a burnt flavour but since I have been flushing it each time it is gone. My alcohol after two runs like this is really good, maybe still a tiny bit sweet, but I am told this is typical of TPW so I have just put a weetbix wash on as advised by Stig.
Anyway the main reason I posted here is it is a long time I have considered this hobby and many times people have offered me a glass of what they have created and EVERY time they ALL had a strange burnt taste, kind of a carbon odd taste even after a few glasses the annoying taste was always there and this is what stopped me from trying to do it myself as I could not live with that taste so I bought Whiskey from the shop instead. Recently I was at a persons house and they used a TPW again I was offered a try, I resisted as I thought I knew all had a horrible burnt taste, but this time not just a slight sweetness. This made me get my T500 and try myself only once did I get the burnt problem and three distillations mostly cleaned it up, but it seems once it is there it cant be totally removed.
Now I set the aircon in the room to keep the temp less than 27 as the bad lot was the hottest time of the year so I wondered if it had gone over 30?
I also clean the column every time and it takes two or three rinses to make it smell clean, and lastly I keep the temperature of the exit water done at around 52 degrees, doing all this I have not had any off smells or taste.
Chris

[PeterC]

You usually don't get methanol from sugar or grain based ferments as it mostly comes from pectins as found in the skins of grapes or plums. To me acetone is the most noticable compound in the foreshots and I use the disappearance of this by smell to decide when to go from fores to heads collection. I have found TPW to always be a bit floral and sweet and I think this comes from the tomato paste. FFV is much cleaner. I make neutral spirits for gin production using a "turbo" yeast called Alcotec Vodkastar. The recipe uses only 6kg sugar in 25L at normal temperature ranges so is not any more stressful on the yeast than TPW. The only time I have noticed burnt flavours is when I have had an accumulation of sediment on my heating elements. I need to clean off elements with a scouring pad and even the bottom of my Robobrew when mashing grain gets a build up over the concealed elements which the T500 also has. I think with any wash it is important to not get too much sediment and dead yeast into the boiler and I ensure any wash I do has been given time to settle out clear before transfer to the boiler.
Hope this helps
Peter C.

[Cafe]

You usually don't get methanol from sugar or grain based ferments as it mostly comes from pectins as found in the skins of grapes or plums. To me acetone is the most noticable compound in the foreshots and I use the disappearance of this by smell to decide when to go from fores to heads collection. I have found TPW to always be a bit floral and sweet and I think this comes from the tomato paste. FFV is much cleaner. I make neutral spirits for gin production using a "turbo" yeast called Alcotec Vodkastar. The recipe uses only 6kg sugar in 25L at normal temperature ranges so is not any more stressful on the yeast than TPW. The only time I have noticed burnt flavours is when I have had an accumulation of sediment on my heating elements. I need to clean off elements with a scouring pad and even the bottom of my Robobrew when mashing grain gets a build up over the concealed elements which the T500 also has. I think with any wash it is important to not get too much sediment and dead yeast into the boiler and I ensure any wash I do has been given time to settle out clear before transfer to the boiler.
Hope this helps
Peter C.

My element is covered and boiler has always been clean and wash settled.
Not sure what caused the burn taste but doing what I do stopped it. Re the TPW flavour a second pass does reduce it substantially.
Cafe

[Harrison]

I faced a similar situation when trying to make my whiskey. One big decision was choosing between Ethyl or Isopropyl Alcohol. I learned a lot about this when I came across this article. Ethyl alcohol is the way to go for drinking because it's made for consumption and it's much safer. Unlike Isopropyl, which can be dangerous and is not meant to be ingested, Ethyl alcohol is what you find in all commercial alcoholic drinks. It's the right kind because it doesn't have the harmful effects of Isopropyl, and it gives you the smooth taste you want in a whiskey.