The turbos are done

[googe]

Take your HBS dude a sample of TPW & Turbo vodka, blind taste test, ask him which one needs vodka essence :laughing-rolling:

Absolutely mate, don't filter either of them( you don't need to with a tpw anyway) and tell him to sample them ;-)

I'd label the turbo as tpw and the tpw as turbo :-D .

[karl]

Hey guys (onmeth & rbsiliva69)
I'm interested in your results.

I've Just finished a TPW vs Turbo wash of my own.

Workflow
2x 25L (One Macstills & One Turbo) both being held at 28 degrees using a temperature controlled fridge. The thermostat was taped to the side of the fermenter and insualted from direct air.

I run my Turbo wash through a washable 1 micron filter before adding to the T500 still. This has proven to remove much of the residual yeast thus minimising bad after-tastes. This tip alone means that I went from double distilling and double filtering workflow to a single distilling and single filtering method to produce a reasonable product.

I rinse the column between distils with water to remove any crap between runs.

With the TPW wash, it was so full of debri after almost 2 weeks (5 days of which were sitting in the fermenter waiting for the debri to settle after fermentation had stopped) that I could only filter with a muslin bag as it was blocking my 1 micron filter after just 3 litres of the 25 litre wash. I know people will say I don't need to but wanted to give the TPW a fair chance to compete with my Turbo wash via the 1 micron filter.

During distillation, I removed 160ml (to keep as acetone) and removed heads and tails that I felt needed removing.

Taste tests
1) Firstly, I read that you don't need to carbon filter a TPW. I tried the spirits straight after diluting to 40% and found it to have a slight sweet taste. The spirit at this stage was not as good as a Turbo wash in a T500 still and using a carbon filter (not via my method anyway).
2) After carbon filtering, the TPW spirit was just marginally better than the Turbo spirit which has also been filtered. The TPW still has a slight sweet taste still but seems smoother to drink and the sweet taste is slightly easier to ignore than the very marginal after taste I get with the Turbo wash.

So yes....My TPW tastes slightly better than my Turbo wash. If I was to score them, I would say Turbo 7/10 and TPW 8/10 (Marginal difference).

If I had any questions from this experiment, it would be how many of you carbon filter your TPW spirits and if none of you do, why do you think mine needed to be filtered? (I am seeking the easiest method to make a neutral spirit).

Cheers fellas

[emptyglass]

is your fermenter heated?

[BackyardBrewer]

I have never filtered. What kind of particles were in it? Did you dissolve the sugar & tomato paste in a saucepan before adding? I've never had one anything but clear.

Siphon or rack it off and don't pour it and they are clear, with a faint orange tinge like fanta.

Never had one with bits.

[karl]

Hi WineGlass & Backyardbrewer

The fermenter is not heated but the temps for the TPW were as follows
Days 1 to 9 (28 degrees C) and the TPW stopped bubbling on the last day.
Day 10 to 14 (26.5 degrees C)

I boiled 3 litres of water, poured it into the fermenter and dissolved all the sugar & tom paste thoroughly before adding the cooler water. My description of the TPW should have been taken into context when compared to the clearness of a Turbo wash. (My mistake).

I may have upset some stuff on the bottom when lifting the fermenter out of the chest freezer (carefully), but anything probably would have been offset by my muslin bag filter. I was careful moving the fermenter and didn't have to move it far.

Cheers

[karl]

Ooops - Forgot to mention, I rack it off using the tap on the fermenter.

[emptyglass]

Not sure I understand.
Temp was above 26.5c, yet you lifted it out of a chest freezer.
Can you enlighten us?

If its too hot sometimes that stops it settling, don't know what freezing does, other than jack off some alcohol.
Lifting it could have stirred it up. Racking is syphoning, I believe you just plain drained it. That could have sucked up some crap.

Either way it should have settled clear. Are you sure it was finnished fermenting?

[Distillnation]

Not sure I understand.
Temp was above 26.5c, yet you lifted it out of a chest freezer.
Can you enlighten us?

I think he is using the chesty as his fermenting fridge with the use of a controller(usually stc-1000). :-)

[googe]

I think it would have been a good idea to run it without worrying about filtering it, then do one you have filtered. Your not going to know if you should filter or not if you don't try both methods?.

[karl]

As posted - Temperature controlled fridge(freezer)
The two washes naturally want to increase temperatures higher than 28 degrees so the freezer is needed to keep temperatures down.
As the set point was 28 degrees when the first wash TPW finished, the residual heat from the second fermenter could not maintain 28 degrees and so the temp dropped to 26.5.
Anyway, I can't see any of these temps being the cause for me needing to filter my TPW spirits so all is ok on the temperature front.

I'm sure it was finished fermenting - The hydrometer told me over a few days

I can't help thinking that everything I experienced was normal. I don't expect the TPW to clear as well as a Turbo and from what I've read, clearing is not all that critical to get a neutral spirit that doesn't require filtering. Since I am using a reflux still, I would have to had disturbed the wash a lot to impact on the final result. As I was careful moving the fermenter and filtered the wash to some degree, I am not sure this is the cause for my TPW spirit being unacceptable to drink without filtering.

I read a few momenta ago on one of the other threads a couple of other users noticing a slight sweetness and so maybe I am just a bit sensitive to it.

I suppose the bottom line is that a rating of 8/10 for a filtered TPW isn't too bad. It may be that I am extra fussy about what I consider acceptable to drink without filtering????

googe - I understand what you mean, but from my experience (with the Turbo washes at least) , boiling residual wash yeast is certainly detrimental when producing a neutral spirit.

Many thanks for your ideas.

[onmeth]

28degrees day 10? Mate following macstills tried and proven . day 5 finished bubbling hydro 1.00 . Took of my warmers and left on cold floor temp 18degrees.
It clears right up hydro day 7 .980 on hydro and clears slight orange colour. Strait into the still let it air for a day . No filtering water down and then onto some chips.
Warmers I mean
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3527
Let it air . I noticed that the turbo produced more piss but with a rougher taste. The TPW was way cleaner no need to filter and oviously less yeild but bear in mind only 5kg sugar not 8 like I use with the turbo . What cuts are you making ? I think the sweet taste might be from your wash not finishing.

[emptyglass]

As posted

If its too hot sometimes that stops it settling

This game is all about making beer for distillling, not drinking. I don't understand the rules of making beer, but I know they are different. Different end goal.
Sorry if I didn't read your post properly, but with that much detail in another guys thread, I was trying to keep it in context.

[karl]

Had a rethink and yep, the temp may be the problem.
With beer, they let the wort cool to get it to settle and as my TPW was in an environment with another hot wash, it didn't get cool at all before I transferred to the boiler.

Looking forward to doing another one now!
Cheers :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Sam.]

So end result was the TPW was better anyway, but you would have had less yield.

Did you do a price comparison? ;-)

[karl]

The costs & yields are interesting.

Please note, for those of you re-use carbon filters or those who are either not terribly fussy or are producing spirits neutral enough to be consumed without filtering, your costings will obviously be cheaper.

Also the quantities detailed below do not take into account heads & tails being removed as it is too subjective to be quantified.

All I want to do is produce a quality spirit. Costs don't mean much when the difference is only about $1 per bottle.

Wash Methods to produce spirits at 40%
Turbo Kit (Everything purchased in box) Cost = $4.06 per 700ml) Yield 9.63 litres
Turbo & Dextrose (Everything purchased separately) Cost = $3.87 per 700ml) Yield 8.55 litres
Turbo & White Sugar (Everything purchased separately) Cost = $3.21 per 700ml) Yield 9.50 litres
Tomato Paste Wash Method Cost = $2.82 per 700ml) Yield 5.20 litres

Detailed Costings Below

Turbo Wash Kit Method (Everything purchased in box) Produced 9635ml at 40%
8kg Wash Kit $53.95
Water $0
Electricity (at 25c per kw/h) $2.00 (Took approx 4 hrs)
TOTAL COST to produce approx 9.63 litres at 40% = $55.95
or $5.80 per litre
or $4.06 per 700ml


Turbo Products but using Dextrose instead of kit sugar Produced 8550ml at 40%
Turbo Yeast (for 25 litres of wash) $9.95
Turbo Clear (for 25 litres $6.95
Turbo Carbon (for 25 litres) $3.95
Dextrose (8kg) purchased in a 25 kg bag $14.40
Carbon Filter (for 25 litres) $10.00
Water $0
Electricity (at 25c per kw/h) $2.00 (Took approx 4 hrs)
TOTAL COST to produce approx 8.55 litres at 40% = $47.25
or $5.52 per litre
or $3.87 per 700ml


Turbo Products but using shop sugar instead of kit sugar Produced 9500ml at 40%
Turbo Yeast (for 25 litres of wash) $9.95
Turbo Clear (for 25 litres) $6.95
Turbo Carbon (for 25 litres) $3.95
White Sugar (8kg) ($2.69 for 2kg) $10.76
Carbon Filter (for 25 litres) $10.00
Water $0
Electricity (at 25c per kw/h) $2.00 (Took approx 4 hrs)
TOTAL COST to produce approx 9.5 litres at 40% = $43.61
or $4.59 per litre
or $3.21 per 700ml


TPW Method (Everything purchased separately)
Tomato Paste (200g for 25 litres of wash) $1.39
Lowan Red Yeast (80g for 25 litres of wash) $1.26
White Sugar (5kg) ($2.69 for 2kg) $6.73
Citric Acid $0.05
C/ Filter (Required as spirits not quite good enough) $10.00
Water $0
Electricity (at 25c per kw/h) $1.5 (Took 3 hrs)
TOTAL COST to produce approx 5.2 litres at 40% = $20.93
or $4.02 per litre
or $2.82 per 700ml

[bayshine]

[quote]Ooops - Forgot to mention, I rack it off using the tap on the fermenter


this may be the reason why it wasnt real clear and needed filtering

[karl]

Not sure.
The sediment trap is about 15mm higher in the fermenter than the sediment spacers found on the bottom of racking canes of syphons.

After mellowing a bit, the spirits have crept up to a 9/10 in my opinion. For those of you who make your TPW neutral spirits without filtering, can you confirm that you get no benefit at all by filtering.

[djfrestyla]

Karl,
I have tried TPW filtered, and unfiltered, i rack straight from fermenter tap, and have not noticed any gain in filtering what so ever.

[noname4670]

Just finished distilling the last turbo wash . I also laid down my first tpw x2 tonight as per tried and proved recipe of Mac still's. I beleive the hydro for both washs where 1.75. :D :D :D
Iam excited to see the difference , LHBS not happy with no turbo purchase today and claims that TPW is a waste of time and does not work. Well iam about to find out first hand wish me luck people. :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

my LHBS had the same reaction and i am here to tell you mate that it does work i will never run turbos again the TPW is cheaper and better (smoother ) tasting imo
sure it takes a bit longer than turbos but it tastes much better quality over quantity as they say

[Dominator]

I don't see anything wrong with HBS selling turbos etc. They are a means to an end and some people are happy with that. However I can't stand when someone mentions a TPW and they say it won't work. All they are doing is showing how naive they are.