Sugar! Sugars an't sugars.

[rb20Siliva69]

Hi there, I have only recently been on forums, but have been making spirit using a Pura distilling still for about three years. Before I realised forums exisited I have tried many different things to try get my spirit to be better; while I have been using turbo's for all of these years, I think the sugar is a huge part of making a good spirit ( bare with me this not only applies to turbo's).
So one of the best things I did was mess with different surgars: 1 icing 2 raw 3 white 4 dextrose and 5 caster. All washes have been using Samuel Willard's 24 hr yeast and 8kg sugar.
Now their was massive results between all of them, but being one to keep cost down wanted the best for the least money. What I have found: dextrose very expensive and for that gains not worth it, icing once again expensive but decent results, raw and white end up with way more fully aroma and taste etc, being the cheapest I think they are not worth it. Caster on the other hand ended with a very clean spirit, even in comparison to dextrose except heaps cheaper. Now I realise most you will go "but your using a turbo"! But using a turbo is my common denominator between all of these tests and caster stands out from the rest. It seems the less refined the sugar the more fuelly aroma and taste. I'm am also testing this with a TPW a mate of mine who has the same still set up, has done a TPW using white; and I using caster so will let you know results but I think there will be a difference. I will not do a strip run using my pot, just straight though the reflux.

[Lupus]

Interesting observations. However, I believe the only difference between normal white sugar and caster sugar is crystal size.Caster sugar is so called because it is fine enough to pass through a superfine sieve called a caster.

The main effect of this fine crystal size is that it dissolves very easily in liquids without the need to stir.

In fact, caster sugar can be made at home with the use of a blender.

As such, I am unsure how this would create a cleaner neutral. Have any other friends made the same observations?

[googe]

Think your right lupus, this tells ya a bit about em. This link says a bit to viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1998.

[Linny]

Also changes when you invert the sugar by adding heat and citric acid

[Ozbrew72]

Love a good experiment!!
Excellent work!
I like the using the yeast as a control as well.
But I have to agree, the only difference between standard white and caster is granule size.
However, a hypothesis only becomes a theory when the experimental results are reproducible and confirmed by peer review. At the moment we only have one data point.
Sounds like some extra brewing is in order!!

[db1979]

Were the Caster sugar and white sugar from the same brand? If not it's possible that the Caster sugar may have come from a refinery that does a much better job of purifying their product. Although, I have been to a CSR refinery in bundaberg where CSR sugar was being packaged and they stopped the run to change over the packaging to homebrand and kept going... same product, different packet. It may pay to know the refinery your sugar came from and this is most likely not on the packet.

Does anyone know more about the process used to make Caster sugar? Do the refineries mill the white sugar into finer crystals or do they precipitate smaller crystals out of their recrystalisers by cooling at a faster rate? If it is the later the caster sugar should be less refined as more impurities would get trapped in the crystal structure. If it's the first option then there should be no difference between caster and white sugar other than crystal size.

[rb20Siliva69]

Hey I'm glad this has created some interest, anyway I think you guys are right, so started to investigate a little found this: "The raw sugar is then dissolved again and stripped of colour, filtered and re-crystallised to granulated sugar. A further crystallisation occurs to produce granules of specific sizes. Quoted from http://www.essentialingredient.com.au/i ... nts/sugar/
So apart from grain size there seems to be not much difference, that being said every time I use white sugar the product is terrible. I completely stopped using it now, so I don't know how it makes a difference but it does.
Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Oh I always use CSR!

[BackyardBrewer]

I have the same still, use only homebrand white sugar, never had a problem. I think there's other factors at play beside the fermentables...

EDIT: as in turbo yeast perhaps? And cuts? What's your run method through the reflux still?

[wynnum1]

dextrose if you buy CSR sugar is there much difference in price only problem most seems to be Chinese import.

[db1979]

I only ever buy the generic brand of sugar. Woolies homebrand or coles savings brand. As I said before, they stop the run and change the packaging. No difference. I think I even saw a pile of black and gold brand packaging waiting to be filled. Sometimes "you get what you paid for" doesn't always hold true.

[rb20Siliva69]

Wynnum1 I usually wait for specials and buy heaps of caster at once usually about 1.60-1.80 a kg dextrose is usually much more than that just not worth it.

Backyardbrewer the turbo is my common denominator (that never changes) only the sugar changes. And my cut method after I take 200ml of fores, I take 500ml of heads and then usually get 3litres of heads (I use to cut in 300-400ml but learnt over time with my still that the middle 3 is the best so don't cut that anymore) and then I take tails in 500ml until it ends; wait till every thing is cold and decide what I use out of tails usually only he first 500ml tail the rest is discarded.

All of this aside the only thing that changes is the sugar and when I use caster the product is better. My method and other ingredients don't change. So I don't know why the product does, but either way I think its worth that little extra cash to buy caster.

I will let you all know the difference in the TPW with caster and the other white ,on Saturday.
If there is a difference, it maybe like backyardbrewer said in not so many words, a different reaction between white and the turbo and the caster and the turbo. Guess we will find out soon if caster makes any difference in a TPW.

Thanks all for your suggestions so far.... Good chat, good chat.

[wedwards]

This just sounds like a case of how the turbo processes different sugars. Given the cost of turbo compared with bakers, I would still go with bakers, however it's good to know how to get a quick wash done if you were in a hurry. I've never like the results from a single run of TPW or any other neutral wash through reflux only, so I always strip it first, regardless of what sugar has been used.

[wynnum1]

Has anyone experimented with Invertase used to make chocolates and inverts the sugar .

[blond.chap]

Has anyone experimented with Invertase used to make chocolates and inverts the sugar .

Nope, can't you just heat it up to invert it?

[Sam.]

Has anyone experimented with Invertase used to make chocolates and inverts the sugar .

Nope, can't you just heat it up to invert it?

If you add an acid as well, yep :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[dogbreath vodka]

From my school boy understanding there are four main sugar types
Sucrose, dextrose, fructose and glucose

As for the sugars that you buy in the supermarkets such as Caster, icing, brown, white, raw, coffee and Demerara.
These are all sucrose in various forms.
They have differing quantities of molasses or are processed differently to give fine grain or coarse.

I worked in Mossman sugar mill in the 1980's - We produced a raw sugar from the cane and even produced what was termed " Mill white" for local consumption.
This had a fairly high molasses content.
From the raw sugar produced in sugar mills it is sent to various buyers that would remelt and refine it to the above types.
But it was and is still sucrose.

In Australia sucrose is produced from sugar cane.
Some other countries use sugar beets.
Brazil to my knowledge is the major producer of sugar (sucrose) from sugar cane.

Cheers
DBV

[db1979]

Yeah you're right that most sugar in the supermarket is essentially sucrose. Dextrose and glucose are the same thing. Sucrose can be inverted to form fructose and glucose (one equivalent from each molecule of sucrose). Also sucrose can be inverted just by heat alone but a catalyst such as an acid will speed it up. Citric acid is often used as a buffer in fermentation to keep the pH in a desirable range so it makes sense to invert sucrose with citric acid and heat. Alternatively it can be left as is and you could let the yeast invert it since they have enzymes that do the job.

[crow]

Have to disagree here. Sugars is sugars, you can invert it and it will speed things up but it won't change the finished product castor sugar will dissolve faster and speed your ferment up by 1/2 hr or so but as before no change same story with dex . The exception here is raw and brown sugar as they contain an amount of molasses that is very hard to remove even with an ultra pure still :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[db1979]

Personally, I'm not a fan of inverting sucrose. Don't see the point. When I used to brew beer I never even bothered mixing, I'd just tip in the liquid malt from the tin, add cold tap water on top and tip in the yeast. You could taste the love. :-p

[bt1]

Howdy,

just a couple of points.

I used to invert all sugar for years. It does have a minor speed advantage as yeast can readily get to the smaller chain sugars. Perhaps .5 of a day say... I don't invert anymore as work practices are based around a weekend no advantage in speed or taste.

With Dex found no advantage until about gen 4 yeast...and only cos yeast bed is "tuned" to the single sugar. This was a specialist 493EDV clone btw not a general off the shelf type. Longer term the yeasts on Dex only tend imho develop some fairly off flavours about gen 8 - 10 from recall.

Given the costs of Dex it's no longer used either.

bt1