Rye Grain and High FG

[oddian]

Hi,

I've made a few brews with different grains to see what I like and I thought I'd try Rye to make a nice Rye Whiskey.

I put together a bill of 7kg, 70% Rye Malt and 30% Barley Malt.

Fairly fine grind on the grains pitched into a tun of 22L at 55C, maintained for an hour and then increased to 65C and kept there for 2 hours. I used a recirculation arm to keep the mash water rotating through, probably should have used some hulls because it was a bit thick but we got there.

At the end I raised the temp to 75 and added some Alpha Amalyse before sparging with 5L at 75C and drawing off about 20L at an OG of 1.045.

Not overly happy with the OG but my first Rye batches I thought I'd do it anyway. My FG however after a few strong days fermenting was rubbish at 1.035. Nothing I could do would get this lower.

Anyone have any advice for me on this?

Thanks
Dan

[chipboy]

What yeast and did you test for residual starches prior to ferment?

[RuddyCrazy]

Mate just work on 2.5 litre per Kg of grain then heat the water to about 73C dump in the grain, give it a real good mix then cover up. Keep the mash above 65C and in a couple of hours full conversion, if you have a refractometer you can see how the mash is going and iodine will confirm when the mash is finished.

This is my method of mashing and it just plain works to make a very nice drop.

Cheers Bryan

[howard]

Hi,

I've made a few brews with different grains to see what I like and I thought I'd try Rye to make a nice Rye Whiskey.

I put together a bill of 7kg, 70% Rye Malt and 30% Barley Malt.

Fairly fine grind on the grains pitched into a tun of 22L at 55C,is this a glucan rest? my glucan rest temp is about 40C, so my strike water calculator says the water should be 43C for 7kg and 22L
maintained for an hour and then increased to 65C and kept there for 2 hours. I used a recirculation arm to keep the mash water rotating through, probably should have used some hulls because it was a bit thick but we got there.
i've had the same problem, the next rye is going into a BIAB.
or buy some beta-glucanese enzyme
At the end I raised the temp to 75 and added some Alpha Amalyse before sparging with 5L at 75C and drawing off about 20L at an OG of 1.045.
how did the sparge water move through the grain? (i usually use more than 5L)
Not overly happy with the OG but my first Rye batches I thought I'd do it anyway. My FG however after a few strong days fermenting was rubbish at 1.035. Nothing I could do would get this lower.

Anyone have any advice for me on this?
sounds like the same problem i've had, i don't think the recirculating water or the sparge water did their job.
rye is a different beast to other grains.
either not enough 65C water in contact with the grain to release/convert the starch or/and the sparge water not flushing the sugary wash out.
you OG should have been about 1060.
maybe you didn't convert the starch at 65C, alpha amalyse would only convert starch to some fermentable sugars, but mainly unfermentable dextrins.
maybe you were left with unfermentable sugars, hence the 1.035
welcome to rye :smile: (wry smile)

Thanks
Dan

[oddian]

I'm using Angel Red, which I've had great success with for Rum, Apple Brandy and Burboun, rehydrated first as it seems to work better.

I did not test for starch prior to fermentation but everything is malted going in and I did add alpha amylase at 75C prior to fermentation for an hour to try and make sure it was all ready to go.

I'll get some iodine for testing for starch for next time. If I do find it's still starchy, what is the best way to handle it? Maybe this is the issue.

[RuddyCrazy]

Oddain for a mash for whisky don't bother with all rest shit as it just isn't needed at all, what we are doing is converting the starch in the grain to sugars for the ferment. Now that method I told you and I just use for grain US-05 yeast as it is simply a great yeast to use.

When doing AG the KISS method does give good results so why bother with different temps and for god's sake Chiness yeast :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

Cheers Bryan

[Wellsy]

Hello odian
As Ruddy has said I suspect your temp may be on the low side. Next time try at 65 - 68 degrees not 55.
Theoretically having a good sg suggests you had good conversion but all grain can be a fickle master and the high final gravity may, just maybe the result of poor conversion or incomplete conversion where the sugars were not broken down enough to be converted.
Everything I have read suggests malt barley needs 65-68 degrees and I suspect malt rye is similar

[howard]

I'm using Angel Red, which I've had great success with for Rum, Apple Brandy and Burboun, rehydrated first as it seems to work better.

I did not test for starch prior to fermentation but everything is malted going in and I did add alpha amylase at 75C prior to fermentation for an hour to try and make sure it was all ready to go.

I'll get some iodine for testing for starch for next time. If I do find it's still starchy, what is the best way to handle it? Maybe this is the issue.

the iodine test will only tell you that the extracted starch has been converted to 'something'.
it cannot tell you if you have got all the starch out of the grain, or that you have converted the extracted starch to fermentable/unfermentable sugars.
alpha amylase on it's own, does not do the whole job either.
i think there should have been just enough DP in that grain bill to complete the job without additional enzymes. :think:

my first attempt on rye with a malt pipe was very hard to recirculate and hard to sparge.
i was having a bad day, didn't feel well, and decided to dump the lot in a fermenter with yellow angel.
that's when i found the big mess of glue-like material blocking up the bottom of the sieve. :wtf:

[oddian]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks so much for your help. I think I have had a few problems with rye, it's probably too gluggy so without the hulls I am leaving a bit of the sugars in mash. I have quite a bit of unfermentables, this could be a conversaion issue or an issue with my yeast and I need to do a little more research ont he right resting temps to get it right.

I have heard Rye is hard but I thought I'd give it a try but for now I think I'll put it away and come back to it later when I'm a little more experienced.

For my next mash I'll go back to bourbon but I'll also go for a much more reliable and popular yeast with the US-05, I'll add hulls and do a starch tests to make sure I'm getting a good conversation. Once I get these right I'll come back to Rye and make it work.

Thanks
Oddian

[RC Al]

Yup rye is a b***h, no matter what method you use.

The commercial liquid enzyme for rye from deltagen has Alpha-Amylase, Xylanase, Cellulase and Protease, thier regular stuff doesn't cut it...

[howard]

Yup rye is a b***h, no matter what method you use.

The commercial liquid enzyme for rye from deltagen has Alpha-Amylase, Xylanase, Cellulase and Protease, thier regular stuff doesn't cut it...

have you used the Deltazyme Rye?
do you have to use a β-amylase as well?

their site says it contains.......
DELTAZYME RYE
A customised blend for Rye mashing, with the following important activities:
- Alpha Amylase for starch conversion
- Beta Glucanase for improved run off
- Neutral Protease for increased free amino nitrogen
- Xylanse to hydrolyse arabinoxylans
- Cellulase to hydrolyse cellulose

[RC Al]

No, but ive had a good chat with the company about it, definitely not a marketing exercise, its a very modern company that doesn't keep unnecessary stock lines/ inventory and listens to their customers.

[oddian]

Thanks guys! I'll definitely check this out when I finally cycle back to Rye. In the mean time, my two rye runs were an epic failure, but I'll chalk it up to learning.