Changing the flavour via mashing

[Linny]

I started stilling first ... was always if you put this much sugar in ,, you get this out ... then i started to proceed onto AG mashes , which was a massive improvement,,, now dont get me wrong i really like the progress which ive been going , but recently i started brewing beer and decided to dive straight into the AG way of things , since i thought how hard could it be ,,, LOL. Always trying to improve i can see techniques ive used in distilling and moved them to beer, but with AG beer there is a whole body vs fermentables and my understanding is that more body means more flavour as well....
Now i taking what ive learnt from beer , i taste my spirits and i notice that it has a very sweet , caramel flavour ,,, originally i thought it was my cuts. but it doesnt seem to change it but im starting to think its the way i mash... usually i multi step mash @ 50, 62, 70 .... then ferment on the grain ( I also seem to think this is part of the sweet flavour ) . Thinking if i just mash @ 62*C for the whole time and not multi then i will get more fermentable sugars vs more body.

Im still building my new still at the moment but ive taken the time beer brewing always finding more , what are your thoughts as I really want to start a discussion about it hopefully asking more questions as they come as i know some of you guys have been doing this a very long time.

[crow]

My thought is a stepped mash is better. Unfermentable sugars are required in beer but not so much in grain spirits. I feel you have an issue with your mashing technique or ferment if you are consistently getting a sweet caramel flavour that you do not desire. Two things can cause this, one is you have residual unfermentable sugars in your mash. Either your step temps are not spot on for all the grains your are using or you are mashing out. Second cause is that not all your fermentable sugars are being converted by the yeast, ei your ferment is stalling or yeast activity becoming dormant before all the sugars are converted. Thing is with multiple grain mashing is the mash temp rests are based on a general activation and denaturing temp for the enzymes in given varieties of barley so therefore if you want to convert other malts completely you will need to do a whole range of other rests (not saying you are doing that just saying if you are). If you are using just a standard 2 or 6 row barley malt to convert other grains the the issues maybe that the starch is not gelitinized for the enzymes to convert them and therefore maybe just converting some residual starches to maltose in the fermenter but not to dextrose or not at the same rate leaving you with with small amount of unfermentable sugars in your finished mash ferment. of course this is just conjecture as I don't know your method or grain bill but if this sounds like a feasable cause then you may want to look at pre-gelitinizing you adjucts just pior to mashing and once they cool to say 45' add the malt allow to rest and then continue your standard 3 step mash :-B

[Linny]

Crow you are a :-B cookies alright .... I think you have hit a nail on the head. I dont tend to mash out then i ferment on the grain which i spose could be some of those "unfermentable" sugars, I dont think i have a problem with stalling , temps are good and i usually aim for about 8-10% ABV.

The pre gelatinize is something that i dont do.... Im going to have to try a different approach next mash day .... and hopefully see if i get a different result....

How much do you think mashing different temps changes the flavour profile ?

[crow]

different temps active and denature different enzymes and not just those standard 3 or four used either so yes it will sure have an influence on the flavour of the end product :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Edit re-reading your original post I think your would be denaturing Beta amylase and so therefore probably not converting much starch to long chain sugars but you would have active alpha amylase breaking down long chains to convertible sugars for your yeast (like I said unless you are mashing out) but its hard to say not knowing how you take your rest temps ect

[Linny]

I used to do it on BIAB on a electric stove ... but i just finished my newer mashtun , that can hold a temp accuratly for how ever long i want. so i spose there will be a improvement there as well

[bt1]

Hello,

two types of mash for mine. Can understand and use two or three steps for BIAB for beers. Some chasing body and slightly higher FG so bout the same.

For a spirits wash it's about yield many. I do the protein rest only for high protein washes, rye, triticale & wheat, otherwise just the beta and alpha.

Use a esky with mash temp water to sit the BIAB boiler pot in for up to 90mins=yield again.

One thing I've noticed doing Irish whisky where spuds are boiled(gelatinise) first then reverse, lower to beta and up to alpha, add the 6 row is its a very "dry" finished spirit (intended as it suits the style) and put it down to starches being better utilised. There's also no complication in flavours like cara or crystal malts just plain high diastatic malt.

bt1

[OzKev]

I've been brewing all grain for many years. Without knowing the recipe I'm guessing a bit here, but can give you some rules.'

You mentioned mashing 50, 62, 70
50c is kept fairly quick with modern malts, so 5 to 10mins is all you need
62c is where the shorter branches are occurring, so if you want a thinner beer maximize time here. you could go 45mins
70c (I jump to 72c to denature the beta-amylase) is where you convert the long chain sugars for a fuller beer. So you could limit this to 15mins.
Then I would jump to 77c/78c to mashout. This not only denatures the enzyme activity but helps wash the sugars out better.
You could combine the 62/72c steps into a single 64c step and mash for 70mins.

When making beer we don't ferment on spent grain.

The yeast you pick will also have an effect on the grain. They have an attenuation %. Typical values are 73-75%. Which means only 73-75% of the sugar will be converted, and the remaining ~25% sugars will leave that sweet and full mouth-feel. You could look at alternative yeasts that suit the style of beer you are making, but have a higher attenuation %.

Finally water chemistry does play an important factor. Are you doing any salt additions to get your mash pH to 5.2? Do you have your calcium up to 100-115ppm for good yeast health? What is your Magnesium level at? While yeast will work in a fairly wide field of water quality, things like low calcium levels can cause the ferment to stall.

Are you boiling the wort/wash that you use for spirits? Normally for spirits I believe you don't. A sweet sticky caramel flavor can also come from a rapid boil, as you can caramilse some of the sugar.

Failing all this you can get 'dry enzyme', which you add to the fermenter and will make a huge change to it.

[crow]

Mashing out is just not a good idea with spirits and will always result in unfermentable long chain residual sugars left in your finished mash, great for beer but not so good for grain spirits. Yeas I sometimes use enzymes added to the ferment. They are the enzymes used by beer makers to get a low carb beer, Copper tun has one in a little packet for about $3 should do around 70 ltrs this will help dry the flavour out and milk a bit more yield

[kiwikeg]

+1 on what crow said these little packets are cheap as and bump up the yeild in a spirit wash.

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[crow]

Yes that's the one (there are others) this is used in the ferment not the mash but it will rip the sweetness out as well as like KK says says up your yield a bit :handgestures-thumbupleft: