Full Mash Contradicting Info

[OzKev]

My cheap ebay pH meter died a couple of months back, and my mash pH strips don't go that low so I could not test it. I know one thing, I tipped it out on my front lawn and it stinks really bad. My office is at the back of the house and I can smell it. I think all my neighbors are heading out shopping for the day. :greetings-waveyellow: An hour of the sprinkler and hopefully it will be watered in enough.

Next one I have decided will be through my mash tun so I can remove the left over corn/grain, and then a quick boil before cooling with an immersion chiller. I'll see how things go, I plan on giving it a go tomorrow.

[Brendan]

My cheap ebay pH meter died a couple of months back, and my mash pH strips don't go that low so I could not test it. I know one thing, I tipped it out on my front lawn and it stinks really bad. My office is at the back of the house and I can smell it. I think all my neighbors are heading out shopping for the day. :greetings-waveyellow: An hour of the sprinkler and hopefully it will be watered in enough.

Next one I have decided will be through my mash tun so I can remove the left over corn/grain, and then a quick boil before cooling with an immersion chiller. I'll see how things go, I plan on giving it a go tomorrow.

I don't boil as I've read not to for whiskey due to further enzyme action that occurs during fermentation, but I don't let it sit overnight. After conversion, I always bring it down with an immersion chiller and pitch immediately :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[the Doctor]

In the past the only time I could do all grain whiskey was in winter when the brewery was not in daily use and before we constructed our fermentation new big hot room it was a bit
chilly for ferments ... as a result I had to boil and store pasteurised, and yes it does kill of the amylase enzymes...my way around the problem was to do enough summer batches that I
could combine a winter batch with the summer batch and co-ferment to let the fresh batch enzymes work their magic. I could have added enzymes but this was a relatively easy way
around the problem. We started on a shoestring budget and any saving was critical to survival. Now we are on our feet I do passive sacharification in much larger batches and with the temp controlled fermentation room capable of handling up to thousands of litres. we now make whiskey all year round. I am proud to say that since we started despite the temperatures at our altitude ( over 1 Km ) we have never had a stuck ferment. But it wasn't always easy...in the first 2 years we had cheap target electric blankets to get us through some of the surprise cold snaps. If you wish to slowly let the wort cool that is fine so long as your recieving vessel is well sanitised, and excludes direct contact with the outside air...bacteria is not the only potential problem...for me wild yeast infection is the big worry as we are situated in a vineyard wild yeast is very prevalent... and most whiskey yeasts are variants on the older ale yeasts and are not agressive killer yeasts... If you get a yeast infection either heat or chill to kill then go again...or alternately you could use a killer like uvaferm 43 but this will lose some of the fruity smoky character. To test for wild yeasts simply put a dished plate of sugar rich wort out in your work space it will show signs of ferment within a few days if this is a problem at your locale. Or alternately if you have acces to a microscope make a agar/sugar plate and check for activity after about 24 to 48 hours.

I have little experience with Corn so do not feel competent to advise, but believe many of these techniques should be applicable. Cheers.
Doc

[OzKev]

Lots of great info.

I'm not too worried about winter, it's more summer I concerned about if I want to use the 44gal fermenter. Our winter daytime temps are about 22-24c. I can ferment at 18c in my carport/workshop without the use of a heater anytime up here. My 60L fermenter does fit in a fermenting fridge, so most the year I'm limited to that batch size. This time of year, my last molasses wash sat on 33.5c without any heating.

We do have a free yeast/bacteria problem here. If I leave any brew wort sitting overnight is nearly always ends up fermenting by itself. As did the corn, even though the corn was covered in a pot with a lid and a towel dropped over that.

Recipe:
10kg Corn
1kg Distillers Malt (BB Galaxy)
1kg Wheat
1.5kg Rye

First I'll ask a question here.
My wife purchased me 3 bottles of Jacks for Christmas to try.
Jack Daniels, Harsh drinking but great vanilla and caramel tones
Jack Daniels Single Barrel, I cannot pick that much difference from the standard stuff
Gentle mans Jacks, A lot smoother nice easy drinking

I've also on many occasions had Jameson Irish whiskey before which I enjoy a lot. Only problem is I can only find recipes which don't use corn only Base Malt plus Malted Rye. I thought that would be more a Scotch Whiskey?

So from my limited description am I on the correct track with the recipe? I drink all my spirits just with ice but I do add a lot of ice so it tends to water it down a lot. Since I love Jameson should I use a lot less corn?







I have the process as follows:
- Mill the grain and set aside
- Mill the cracked corn... I'm thinking of using the same mill setting as I mill barley 0.9mm
- Heat water to the boil
- Add water to the corn at a ratio of 6:1... 60L water to 10kg corn in a 100L insulated mash tun. 6:1 is ratio used at Mountain Moonshiners
- Mix using drill attachment
- Put lid on and add extra insulation
- Monitor the temperature until it drops to 65c
- Add milled grain and stir
- Recover and hopefully hit 63c
- Wait 1hr and do a starch test
- If starch present cover and wait longer, repeating until starch neutral
- Once starch neutral insert immersion chiller and chill to 30c... I cannot get under that due to current 26c water temperatures
- Drain via false bottom into fermenter leaving corn kernels and grain husks behind
- Measure volume in fermenter. If I'm short of my target 48L then sparge the mash tun to get more wort out
- Pitch SafSpirit Whiskey year starter.. pitch at the 30c and throw in fermenting fridge set to 22c.

Allowing 85% efficiency this should hit 1.072

Ok, next set of questions
Any issues with the above procedure?
Is 6:1 water to grain ratio good? Could I go a bit less water upfront and save it for sparging?
I assume even once I've added the grain it will still be too concrete like to try and recirculate through the HERMS to help hold the 63c Beta Amylase rest. Could I check it after the grain has been in there for 30mins and see if I can recirc?
Should I add any of the left of kernels and husks to the fermenter? I'd prefer not to as it keeps the fermenter volume lower.

[Brendan]

Kev, i'm sure Doc will have some more detailed information for you along the lines of Irish whisky. But corn, I can throw a bit in.

I'm a bit unsure what you're asking about with reference to the drinks...an Irish Whisky like Jameson has absolutely no corn...it's 100% malted barley (just like scotch), however it is distilled 3 times as opposed to scotch that is distilled twice. Jack Daniel's grain bill is 80% corn/12% barley/8% rye (no wheat), which is a fairly standard bourbon mash bill, but Jack's flavour can be attributed to their process of filtering the spirit through maple charcoal which adds some caramel like notes to the final product. Because of this process, they can not be called a bourbon as it's a flavouring, therefore Jack is a Tennessee Whiskey. In some whiskies, the rye can be replaced by wheat for a softer breadier flavour (like Makers Mark).

Now I could be corrected with an exception to the rule, but pretty much all corn whiskey mashes are not sparged and are fermented on the grain. The corn is milled to a flour to assist in gelatinisation which becomes a very thick gloop which would not be viable for use with a HERMS system. After adding your malts, the solution will thin out a lot back to liquid as it converts, which may allow use of a HERMS system. The hard part is holding that corn at 90+ deg C and agitating for a couple of hours while it is a thick gloopy mixture :handgestures-thumbupleft: I'm putting up a thread soon of how I do it, in case that might help.

Also, not saying that i'm correct, but 22 deg C seems a little low to me for a corn whiskey. I also use Safspirit American Whiskey yeast and pitch mine at 30 deg C also, and it stays around that temp for the 3-4 days of fermentation.

[OzKev]

I guess a bit of the questioning is exploring. I don't have any local people that I know who uses a pot still, everyone here seems to run a StillSpirits reflux with the cordials. Not knocking them, but it is a very basic product they produce. My concern is running a 50L boiler, and collecting enough low wines for a spirit run means a decent sized batch. I do like a mixture of drinks, but am chasing something with a bold caramel and an oaked vanilla taste.

I can't get my head around the idea that the Irish Whiskey is the same as a Scotch. To me a scotch is more sharp, where a Jameson is more like a Bourbon Whiskey in character. Maybe I should treat myself a bottle of scotch and also Jameson and do a side by side test. I'm going to end up with a good collection of shop spirits on hand.

That recipe started as a Jacks, if you drop out the wheat it works out at 80/12/8, then I threw some wheat in there as a lot of people seem to enjoy it. I love Rye in beer, so maybe I should drop the wheat and stay with the standard recipe.

If you put up a thread of your procedure please let me know. I do have a mash paddle that is pretty serious. It's stainless with a 20mm handle, and a 1.5mm plate blade, and it's about 1m long. I'm hoping it will be easy enough to agitate the mash with it. http://www.thebrewshop.com.au/mash-paddle-stainless-steel.html This is not mine but is similar. The Safspirit spec sheet said 20-32c so I was staying in the lower more neutral temperature, but have just bumped the fridge setting to 28c to get some more character.

[Brendan]

So Irish Whiskey is triple distilled and is only using malted barley that is unpeated. Scotch Whisky is double distilled using malted barley which is peated to whatever degree that distillery chooses for their product. There can also be differences in the barrels/oak type used.

Okay, now a big point that people don't generally seem to pick up...80% corn doesn't mean 80% of the grains by weight, it means 80% of the sugars in the mash are from corn. Different grains will deliver different amounts of sugar by weight. For example, corn may yield around 70% sugars by weight, whereas barley may only yield around 50%...this needs to be calculated to get your accurate grain bill...by all means throw what ever flavours you want in there, but you need accurate calculation of your grain bill to determine if you have enough malt to convert the starches...you may have a 90%+ corn grain bill unknowingly, and not have enough malt for conversion...

[tipsy]

Okay, now a big point that people don't generally seem to pick up...80% corn doesn't mean 80% of the grains by weight, it means 80% of the sugars in the mash are from corn. Different grains will deliver different amounts of sugar by weight.

:clap: Good post

You learn something new everyday.

[OzKev]

I did some side by side tests.
Jack Daniels, Jack Daniels Single Barrel, Gentleman Jacks and Jameson.
Notes:
I could not pick up much difference between the Jacks and the Single Barrel. On a blind fold tasting I *guessed* correctly. The other two were easy to pick.
The Gentleman Jacks was a lot smoother and enjoyable
The Jameson definitely had a more smooth taste, but slightly floral and a hint of scotch like.
So I picked the Gentleman Jacks for a style.


I'm heating water up for a brew today, it still takes a little while to get 70L (10L will be used for cleanups) of water up to 98c with 240v/6800w
10kg corn, run through my mill on 0.9mm (my normal grain setting)
1.5kg Galaxy
1.5kg Rye
0.5kg Crystal

Corn has a sugar content of 1.037 or 80% if you prefer that figure.
Galaxy is 1.037 or 81.5% (this grain is close to corn)
Rye is 1.029 or 63%, so I upped this quantity.
I threw in some Crystal (caramal) malt to get some caramel happening. I may add a bit more in future batches but will taste the wort first.

Initially I'm not going to recirculate it through the HERMS as I'm worried the starch will set to hard to recirculate anyway. BeerSmith calcs 1.72 OG at 85% efficiency. See how I go.

[OzKev]

Quick update.

11.00am Corn mash in, added 45L of water, as I thought the other 15L may come in handy for bumping/lowering temperatures later.
11.30am recirculated it. It ran very slow, but enough to allow the HERMS to put some heat back into it. Once I was happy with the temp I turned off the pump and HERMS.
12.00am the corn already looks gelatinised. So milling the corn first has made the difference I was looking for. I decided to leave it a bit longer as I had a couple of things to do and give it time to drop to 63c.
1.30pm not much difference to the corn, maybe a bit softer. Recirculated to ensure an even 63c throughout the mash tun. Added the Barley and Rye. I ended up adding 5L more water to result in a very thick mash. I'll check on it in another hour.

[OzKev]

2.30pm Startch test still shows starch. I have fired up the pump and HERMS to hold 63c. Quick sugar check shows 12brix (1.048) so far, so still a lot of sugar needed to be converted. I'm still 10L short on target volume, but still have plenty of starch to convert. I'll check on it in another hour.

[Brendan]

Are you sure you've got enough enzyme/diastatic power? You're using BB Galaxy, so you shouldn't have any problem...

edit: Just saw that was only after an hour, you'll be right :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[OzKev]

Are you sure you've got enough enzyme/diastatic power? You're using BB Galaxy, so you shouldn't have any problem...

edit: Just saw that was only after an hour, you'll be right :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Yep plenty of DP, it works out at 41.6 Lintner. I'm going to leave it until about 4pm then check again.

[OzKev]

Thought I'd better post the final status update. 1.061 which equates to 74.2% eff. Probably not bad, but not the 85% I had dialed up. The starch test was showing some residual starch but I could not be bothered hanging around any more and I don't think there was a lot left in it. It tasted pretty good, not overly corny as I had thought. It's been chilled and a yeast starter has been pitched. I don't like the idea of leaving it overnight, especially after my last brew went sour.

I think next batch:
Allow an earlier start
I may double mill the corn and lessen the gelatin phase.
I'm thinking a beta glucanase rest, but don't know if that is just asking for trouble when trying to get from there to 95c.

Time to sit back for a brew.

[bt1]

Are you sure you've got enough enzyme/diastatic power? You're using BB Galaxy

Try supplementing a little for a big corn wash....

IMAG0055.jpg

I may double mill the corn and lessen the gelatin phase.

way to go imho but it does need more attention to stop sticking and being scorched.

bt1

[Brendan]

Try supplementing a little for a big corn wash....

Where do you get your enzyme from bt1? Is that liquid?

[OzKev]

Also interested in where to get it from, it would help speed up the amylase rest.

My LHBS doesn't have it, National Home Brew only has 4g bags for 2.50 each and Craftbrewer does not have ti on his site.

How much do you use / batch size?

[the Doctor]

Guys I know others have put links up to this book but it is very pertinent to the discussion.If you are looking for excellent content on whiskey ... this is the book. My very favourite... Cheers
Doc

http://aussiedistiller.com.au/books/sti ... ussell.pdf

[bt1]

Enzyme is by a mob called Ritchies

http://www.ritchieproducts.co.uk/html/Chemicals.htm

I've found the liquid ones for overseas(German mainly) are bloody expensive and have used this one instead for past year or two...Lower cost $6 for 25gm. use 2 teaspoon bout half, for a big corn wash= (60lt wash minus the solids part on grain ferment for mine) ... It improves yield but main thing is it saves time. Keep it in the fridge. has a fairly short shelf life bout 8 months max.

I get mine from Bill, he only stocks it at wine season it's not listed on his site however so nearly bout time to order it...

http://brewmaker.com.au/Home/Home.asp

Reckon wine specialist like Winequip would get or have it especially for Chardonnay/Fumeblanc/ Chennin blanc grape regions

cheers
bt1

[OzKev]

I'm doing 48L washes, so I may go the same 12g per batch. Do you do starch tests? If so how long does it take you to get full conversion?

I ordered a lb bag. When it gets here I'm going to be busy with my vac sealer making about 38 bags up. Should keep me in supply for a while :scared-eek: ( a mate is going to take up the hobby so I should be able to off load a heap on him)