All Grain Bourbon

[Frothwizard]

Wow...just wow...great work Brendan. That's how you write up a process right there!!

[BackInBlack]

Fantastic :clap:
Ain't separating the grain from the mash a load of fun :laughing-rolling:

[tipsy]

Excellent stuff Brendan.
Thankyou.

[stretch69]

Thanks heaps mate, that's one of the best post's I've read on this forum! . I don't even have my still yet but fortunately I do have some of the all grain equipment'

[Brendan]

I'm mashing this bourbon today again...

After having a chat with someone wiser than I on starch and enzyme conversion, I'm trying a few different things.

- I did pre-soak my corn over night
- I'm adding all malt at 62 deg C, and resting
- Then raising the temp to 70-72 deg C for a rest
- Then check for conversion and either let cool, or force cool

I'll report back later on :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[MacStill]

Then raising the temp to 70-72 deg C for a rest

How will that effect the alpha enzyme ?

From everything I've seen about AG whiskey (which isn't much really) I thought this was not good, so it would be good to hear some views on this.

[bayshine]

i guess this would denature beta for further activity in the ferment :think:

[MacStill]

i guess this would denature beta for further activity in the ferment :think:

I thought 63 or 64c was the optimum, beta is actually what I meant... just got a bit ahead of myself posting in a hurry without thinking much :oops:

[Brendan]

i guess this would denature beta for further activity in the ferment :think:

Yeah apparently that's the go...the 'guru' reckons Beta is all but denatured after 40mins at 62 anyway and you want the fermentable sugars from Beta in the low 60's...then raise it to 70ish for Alpha...supposed to increase the speed of the whole conversion process :think: (assuming I understood properly what he was explaining).

I'm giving it a go because my usual conversion takes HOURS :!!

I always thought high to low was fine as alpha chops the chains/branches up randomly and beta works on the ends, but apparently adding your malt at that high end range (68+), you denature beta and miss out on important fermentable sugars that beta gets at low 60's...in saying that, from my understanding, the enzymes don't actually denature completely until about 90 deg C, but we look at their optimum ranges... :-B

[bayshine]

I add hbs alpha or sacrifice some malt at 72 deg as this thins the mash down
So I can stir it with my drill and it keeps on working till I get to 65 deg and add malt for beta
My way of thinking is you need alpha first to break down the long starch chains
And then the beta chomps the ends of the smaller chains giving better conversion

[Brendan]

I add hbs alpha or sacrifice some malt at 72 deg as this thins the mash down
So I can stir it with my drill and it keeps on working till I get to 65 deg and add malt for beta
My way of thinking is you need alpha first to break down the long starch chains
And then the beta chomps the ends of the smaller chains giving better conversion

Yep that's exactly how I always think of it bayshine...I'm just giving this a try anyway and see how it goes; can't knock it until then. The bloke that told me this knows friggen everything brewing related, so I'll trust him on a batch :-D

[bayshine]

Let us know how it goes brendan

[MacStill]

I'm just giving this a try anyway and see how it goes; can't knock it until then.

No no I'm not knocking anything at all Brendan, I was just asking out of curiosity..... I have lots to learn in this regard :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Brendan]

I'm just giving this a try anyway and see how it goes; can't knock it until then.

No no I'm not knocking anything at all Brendan, I was just asking out of curiosity..... I have lots to learn in this regard :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Nah I meant I can't knock it yet :))

Yeah, I don't have much experience on step mashes. I know the serious beer brewers use them, so there must be benefits..The old protein rest is all but irrelevant now (due to fully modified malts), so it's really only the alpha and beta rests that we need to understand...

Maybe Doc has some insight from a brewers/scotch distillers knowledge? :D

[OzKev]

Good write up, lots of points to take into account for us new players. I've played with all grain beer for years, but as you probably know only have done 2 corn mashes so far. Have you thought about doing a beta gluconase step? I'm thinking if it goes to plan then we should not see a thick guey mix at the 95c step to gelatinse the corn, allowing easier recirculation to hold the temperature better. It will still be thick as the starches suck up the water, just not glue like. After seeing your corn I need to mill mine a lot more.

[waza]

I'm mashing this bourbon today again...

- I did pre-soak my corn over night
- I'm adding all malt at 62 deg C, and resting
- Then raising the temp to 70-72 deg C for a rest
- Then check for conversion and either let cool, or force cool

I'll report back later on :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Thats pretty much how I do it but, i dont force cool, I let it cool overnight. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Sam.]

Always keep in the back of your mind that beer brewers are looking for a different result ;-)

You might have to ask why they are doing certain things and the answer may well be that its for head retention or mouthfeel or body etc etc.

All we want is the most fermentables posssible which from my limited knowledge doesn't encompass many beer styles :think:

[Brendan]

Always keep in the back of your mind that beer brewers are looking for a different result ;-)

You might have to ask why they are doing certain things and the answer may well be that its for head retention or mouthfeel or body etc etc.

All we want is the most fermentables posssible which from my limited knowledge doesn't encompass many beer styles :think:

I hear ya Sam, that's exactly what I think...

The advice I was given was from a beer brewer with bourbon experience (but all-grain distilling experience). The main reason I'm looking at doing one step is that my usual way took many hours, and am too scared to leave it all night (but I still would if I had to)...

My thoughts at the moment are that the single step mash I was doing was fine...maybe just another packet of enzymes to help the malt along...

[Brendan]

Have you thought about doing a beta gluconase step? I'm thinking if it goes to plan then we should not see a thick guey mix at the 95c step to gelatinse the corn

I did look into it...here's what Dnderhead on HD said (for those who know of him)

Re: Gelatinization Temperature Chart
by Dnderhead » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:44 am

corn/maze does not have the gluten so why whould you do the rest?
ones that need a stepped mash is wheat,,rye,,barley has some but as much and does not bother.there mite be others?

Dnderhead
Master Distiller

[MacStill]

My thoughts at the moment are that the single step mash I was doing was fine...

This is the process Doc has touched on not so long ago, this is why I was asking about the 72c ? rest, might have been just before you got back if you want look for it.

maybe just another packet of enzymes to help the malt along...

Crow has suggested the use of low carb beer enzymes a few times, if I ever get time I'll be trying this with a single rest at 63-64c for an hour, followed by a protein rest due to all the problems I had with puking last time.