LACTO INFECTION

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LACTO INFECTION

Postby strongy12 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:53 pm

Whats the go on running washes with a lacto infection. From what ive read on the internet it seems a lot of people just run it and it tastes just fine.

from what I gather doing sour mashes helps stop lacto and other infections from occurring but does anyone have a method for stopping it taking hold without doing a sour mash?

iv done three all grain ferments all turning out with a lacto infection. My sanitizing is all above board as far as i know brewing beer for a few years with no infections to date. I know brewing beer is a bit different as the wash is boiled before fermenting thus killing all chances of wild yeast and bacterial infections.

has anyone had the same problems with lacto infections and know what to do, or maybe my sanitizing process is flawed ?
i use sodium per-carbonate for cleaning and star-san no rinse for sanatizing
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby EziTasting » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:24 pm

Hmm I had one when I did my first Appalachian Moonshine. when I asked a very similar question as yours, I got several different responses from tip it out to run it asap as the bacteria will eat the alcohol and turn it into vinegar.

First go, what did I have to loose!?! So we scooped off the infection and then stripped the entire batch (it was rather large - waste not want not). Then did a spirit run with the low wines. I didn't like it off the Parrot, and it still tastes ... inconsistent! Hoping age will cure the final product; perhaps its because of the infection, perhaps its because of the way I ran the mash not sure, but I have sufficient ingredients to make another 2 batches - one of those answers will expose itself as the truth.

If you choose to tip it out or run it and it turns to poop, it doesn't matter, the outcome has already been decided! Just be careful!
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby warramungas » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:25 pm

More info would help. Recipe, mixing procedure??
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby Jonnie Walker » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:48 pm

Here is what I posted in the "Single malt recipe advice" thread


I have been brewing beer for 35 years plus and have never had an infection, when I started into distilling and did not boil the wort before fermenting I have had quite a few infections, they always seem to occur after the fermentation is complete, I have a theory that a lot of these infections are aerobic and need oxygen to develop, when the wort is fermenting vigorously there is a blanket of CO2 on top expelling the oxygen, as soon as the CO2 production stops at the end of the fermentation oxygen can easily percolate in to the fermentor and hey presto, the aerobic infection gets going, it was there all the time most likely from lactobacillus on the grain, it just needed the oxygen to make it happy (and you unhappy). This is a great site on sour beer that explains a lot of this with some great pictures of infections. http://hookedonhops.com/2014/09/14/sour-beer-culturing-wild-lactobacillus/

I have run my scotch mash after such an infection with absolutely no difference from the same mash without the infection see here http://www.aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9632

There is a very simple way to avoid a lactobacillus infection, just boil your wort prior to fermentation, should be at a rolling boil for at least 30 minutes to kill all the nasties, the trick then is to cool it to fermentation temperature as fast as possible and pitch a good healthy amount of yeast.

Another observation is that distillers (and bakers) yeasts like to ferment in the high temperature range they can easily go up to 90°F this only promotes the lacto taking hold (lacto likes around 115°F). Here's another good site on lacto souring http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/

How about trying a fermentation with a yeast like Safale US05 at around 65°F, it will take at least a week, maybe 2 the ferment out, hopefully the temperature will be low enough that the lacto will not get going.

I ran a wash yesterday that was 100% Cherry smoked gain, mashed on June 8th SG was 1.055, fermented with Mangrove Jack M27 at 90F after 3 days the fermentation was complete at 0.995. it sat as I didn't have time to run it. at around day 5 it started to get the white film on the surface, by yesterday (18 days) it was a thick coating, I just siphoned the wash out from underneath it and ran it. ended up with 2 litres of 70% product and 1 litre of 60% fients. Tastes great!!
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby strongy12 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:17 pm

Cheers guys. All three times i was using straight joe white trad grain

The first one was fermented with us 05 at 18deg C and right at the third week it took on the infection, the next two I used a 7grams of us05 and 7g of champaign yeast mixed at 26 deg C and after 4 days I started to see signs of the lacto infection. I figured it would need boiling to kill the nasties but I'm lazy and was hoping I could avoid it. I did run the first batch and it tasted normal off the still but I added it to some neutral I had and re ran it still with no off flavours that I can tell. I am a novice tho.

I now have about 130L of lacto infected beer, gonna run it and hope for the best. I think you are on the money johnny with the infection needing oxygen from what I've seen and read ( my first batch lasted 3 weeks before I saw any signs of infection because it was a very cold ferment 19 deg and us05 was used) I also read that using a sour mash technique the back set lowers the ph also helping to stop lacto infection.
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby strongy12 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:23 pm

Mixing procedure? I just used straight joe white grain and did a simple mash holding it around 69deg C for 1.5 hours then batch sparged.
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby strongy12 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:44 pm

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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby warramungas » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:48 pm

Most people mash at 65 degrees. Did you boil after mashing? I think that's where I went wrong with my vinegar wash.
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby Jonnie Walker » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:00 pm

strongy12 wrote: I figured it would need boiling to kill the nasties but I'm lazy and was hoping I could avoid it.


My sentiment exactly! One one the most tedious things about brewing beer is the boil, never mind I only have a 7.5 gallon pot. Oh well guess I need to find a larger pot.

One of the reasons distillers don't boil is to keep the enzymes alive, they keep working on the sugars all the way through the ferment making for a drier, higher ABV product. My plan for the next batch is to boil and add SebAmyl after cooling to pitching temperatures, lets see how that works out.
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby Sam. » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:13 am

Run the wash the instant it's finished and you won't have a problem :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: LACTO INFECTION

Postby strongy12 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:37 pm

Your right Sam but who has the time to run a wash as soon as it finishes, work, kids etc but I'm sure u mean as soon as possible. Yep sounds like a plan johnny I might do the same. No I didn't boil warra but might have to now. Yeah 65 to 69 deg C I mash in a keg so I get around 3-4 deg loss in temp over 1.5 hours, one day I'll take the next step into a herms system but one step at a time.
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