First run done, now some questions.

Just starting out and need some advise? then post it in here.

First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:39 pm

I've got my first run of Rye Bread Whiskey airing out in mason jars covered with coffee filters. Had fun and no explosions, so YEE HAW :handgestures-thumbupleft: A couple quick newbie questions.

First, I mistakenly had my cooling water running at about half volume and inevitably had a puke. After the panicking subsided and we figured out the source of the issue, I collected all the product that spewed forth and dumped it back in the boiler. My reasoning being that nothing is wrong with the product, it's just full of foreshots and heads, and that running it through again would sort it out. Anything wrong with that?

Second, I ran the whole process very slow, lots of fiddling with the cooling system which clearly needs a smaller pump. Does running a plate still (FSD Neutralizer, 4x plates, no packing) slower strip more flavor than running the same system faster? I want to make manly hairy-chested whiskey, not some girly flavorless vodka!

Third, what do we store spirits in for aging when using oak dominos? Wide-mouth mason jars and demijohns probably. I'm assuming lower spirit volume to wood ratio will flavor the whiskey faster. Meaning I'd get drinkable whiskey faster in 1L jars than the same in a 5L demi if using the same amount of wood, right?

Last, I ended up with about 19x 350ml jars of product. Started around 92% and ended around 65%. I stopped when I did, because the product started smelling like sulfer to my nose. I assumed that meant I was into the tails... but of course, having never distilled before, I don't actually know what tails smell like! Does that sound right or did I cut off too early?
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby ThePaterPiper » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:42 pm

Borneogoat wrote:I want to make manly hairy-chested whiskey, not some girly flavorless vodka!


Now that's my kind of man! :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Doubleuj » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:51 pm

Borneogoat wrote:I've got my first run of Rye Bread Whiskey airing out in mason jars covered with coffee filters. Had fun and no explosions, so YEE HAW :handgestures-thumbupleft: A couple quick newbie questions.

First, I mistakenly had my cooling water running at about half volume and inevitably had a puke. After the panicking subsided and we figured out the source of the issue, I collected all the product that spewed forth and dumped it back in the boiler. My reasoning being that nothing is wrong with the product, it's just full of foreshots and heads, and that running it through again would sort it out. Anything wrong with that?
by cooling water I assume you mean on the rc? Either way this won't cause a puke. It would have puked because the boiler was too full or you were running too hard, do you have a power controller? As for chucking what you had collected back in that's all good :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Second, I ran the whole process very slow, lots of fiddling with the cooling system which clearly needs a smaller pump. Does running a plate still (FSD Neutralizer, 4x plates, no packing) slower strip more flavor than running the same system faster? I want to make manly hairy-chested whiskey, not some girly flavorless vodka!
running slow won't strip any more out than running as fast as your bubbler should be run. If you're running flat out and treating it like a strip run you might get more flavour but it would be shit and your cuts would be smeared

Third, what do we store spirits in for aging when using oak dominos? Wide-mouth mason jars and demijohns probably. I'm assuming lower spirit volume to wood ratio will flavor the whiskey faster. Meaning I'd get drinkable whiskey faster in 1L jars than the same in a 5L demi if using the same amount of wood, right?
glass or oak barrels or stainless only, there's heaps of threads on this, I'd suggest its best for you to search and find them


Last, I ended up with about 19x 350ml jars of product. Started around 92% and ended around 65%. I stopped when I did, because the product started smelling like sulfer to my nose. I assumed that meant I was into the tails... but of course, having never distilled before, I don't actually know what tails smell like! Does that sound right or did I cut off too early?

you shouldn't be seeing any drop in abv until tails and even then only a point or two jump, I'd say you're running way too fast. Up the cooling water or/ and get a controller
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Lowie » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:31 pm

Read this mate, then read it a few more times. All will be revealed and the world will be good. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2681 :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:07 am

Lowie wrote:Read this mate, then read it a few more times. All will be revealed and the world will be good. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2681 :handgestures-thumbupleft:


Got this one printed off and sitting next to the still, more helpful than the gazillion other threads I've read!
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:32 am

Doubleuj wrote:
Borneogoat wrote:I've got my first run of Rye Bread Whiskey airing out in mason jars covered with coffee filters. Had fun and no explosions, so YEE HAW :handgestures-thumbupleft: A couple quick newbie questions.

First, I mistakenly had my cooling water running at about half volume and inevitably had a puke. After the panicking subsided and we figured out the source of the issue, I collected all the product that spewed forth and dumped it back in the boiler. My reasoning being that nothing is wrong with the product, it's just full of foreshots and heads, and that running it through again would sort it out. Anything wrong with that?
by cooling water I assume you mean on the rc? Either way this won't cause a puke. It would have puked because the boiler was too full or you were running too hard, do you have a power controller? As for chucking what you had collected back in that's all good :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Second, I ran the whole process very slow, lots of fiddling with the cooling system which clearly needs a smaller pump. Does running a plate still (FSD Neutralizer, 4x plates, no packing) slower strip more flavor than running the same system faster? I want to make manly hairy-chested whiskey, not some girly flavorless vodka!
running slow won't strip any more out than running as fast as your bubbler should be run. If you're running flat out and treating it like a strip run you might get more flavour but it would be shit and your cuts would be smeared

Third, what do we store spirits in for aging when using oak dominos? Wide-mouth mason jars and demijohns probably. I'm assuming lower spirit volume to wood ratio will flavor the whiskey faster. Meaning I'd get drinkable whiskey faster in 1L jars than the same in a 5L demi if using the same amount of wood, right?
glass or oak barrels or stainless only, there's heaps of threads on this, I'd suggest its best for you to search and find them


Last, I ended up with about 19x 350ml jars of product. Started around 92% and ended around 65%. I stopped when I did, because the product started smelling like sulfer to my nose. I assumed that meant I was into the tails... but of course, having never distilled before, I don't actually know what tails smell like! Does that sound right or did I cut off too early?

you shouldn't be seeing any drop in abv until tails and even then only a point or two jump, I'd say you're running way too fast. Up the cooling water or/ and get a controller


Thanks for the answers Doubleuj. However, they have spawned more questions, like bloody rabbits. I have a 100L boiler (FSD milk can) and 2x 2400w heaters. 75-80l wash, so I don’t think I’m over filling. 2x heaters to warm up, then shut down one when the plates load up. My cooling water for RC and PC is a Y-arrangement of 3x stainless braid hoses, exactly like the other threads discussing this system, with a gate valve before the RC. Water feature pump with 2.8m head and 3000LPH. During my cleaning run I had trouble choking the RC cooling water down enough to get a toothpick stream. The gate valve was closed as much as I could close it, another bee's dick and flow completely stopped. It seemed to me that I had too much cooling water and the valve could not be adjusted fine enough. Less water seemed the answer for finer control.

For this whiskey run, I added a Y-fitting before the cooling hoses with a hose returning some cooling water back to the reservoir. The idea being with less cooling water to the RC the gate valve could be adjusted in finer increments for each turn of the wheel. And this time, I could indeed get a toothpick stream, but with difficulty. Again, it seemed the gate valve was too coarse an adjustment. A smidge more closed and too much flow, open a tad and too fast a flow. I’m having a hard time finding the Goldilocks Zone (aka “just right”) without lots of fiddling. Also, the flow from the parrot was a little erratic.

You are suggesting I’m running too hot and I should reduce heat or increase cooling. Could be right, but I’ve thought this over several times and run myself in a circle! Reducing heat power seems easy, that other still brand has a power controller kit that looks simple enough to build. Or I could remove my cooling return hose located pre-PC, but either of those ideas seems to put me back at square one…. I think I’m missing something fundamental to how I control the cooling.
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Zak Griffin » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:48 am

Get yourself a needle valve for RC control :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby nuddy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:35 am

Borneogoat wrote:
Doubleuj wrote:
Borneogoat wrote:I've got my first run of Rye Bread Whiskey airing out in mason jars covered with coffee filters. Had fun and no explosions, so YEE HAW :handgestures-thumbupleft: A couple quick newbie questions.

First, I mistakenly had my cooling water running at about half volume and inevitably had a puke. After the panicking subsided and we figured out the source of the issue, I collected all the product that spewed forth and dumped it back in the boiler. My reasoning being that nothing is wrong with the product, it's just full of foreshots and heads, and that running it through again would sort it out. Anything wrong with that?
by cooling water I assume you mean on the rc? Either way this won't cause a puke. It would have puked because the boiler was too full or you were running too hard, do you have a power controller? As for chucking what you had collected back in that's all good :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Second, I ran the whole process very slow, lots of fiddling with the cooling system which clearly needs a smaller pump. Does running a plate still (FSD Neutralizer, 4x plates, no packing) slower strip more flavor than running the same system faster? I want to make manly hairy-chested whiskey, not some girly flavorless vodka!
running slow won't strip any more out than running as fast as your bubbler should be run. If you're running flat out and treating it like a strip run you might get more flavour but it would be shit and your cuts would be smeared

Third, what do we store spirits in for aging when using oak dominos? Wide-mouth mason jars and demijohns probably. I'm assuming lower spirit volume to wood ratio will flavor the whiskey faster. Meaning I'd get drinkable whiskey faster in 1L jars than the same in a 5L demi if using the same amount of wood, right?
glass or oak barrels or stainless only, there's heaps of threads on this, I'd suggest its best for you to search and find them


Last, I ended up with about 19x 350ml jars of product. Started around 92% and ended around 65%. I stopped when I did, because the product started smelling like sulfer to my nose. I assumed that meant I was into the tails... but of course, having never distilled before, I don't actually know what tails smell like! Does that sound right or did I cut off too early?

you shouldn't be seeing any drop in abv until tails and even then only a point or two jump, I'd say you're running way too fast. Up the cooling water or/ and get a controller


Thanks for the answers Doubleuj. However, they have spawned more questions, like bloody rabbits. I have a 100L boiler (FSD milk can) and 2x 2400w heaters. 75-80l wash, so I don’t think I’m over filling. 2x heaters to warm up, then shut down one when the plates load up. My cooling water for RC and PC is a Y-arrangement of 3x stainless braid hoses, exactly like the other threads discussing this system, with a gate valve before the RC. Water feature pump with 2.8m head and 3000LPH. During my cleaning run I had trouble choking the RC cooling water down enough to get a toothpick stream. The gate valve was closed as much as I could close it, another bee's dick and flow completely stopped. It seemed to me that I had too much cooling water and the valve could not be adjusted fine enough. Less water seemed the answer for finer control.

For this whiskey run, I added a Y-fitting before the cooling hoses with a hose returning some cooling water back to the reservoir. The idea being with less cooling water to the RC the gate valve could be adjusted in finer increments for each turn of the wheel. And this time, I could indeed get a toothpick stream, but with difficulty. Again, it seemed the gate valve was too coarse an adjustment. A smidge more closed and too much flow, open a tad and too fast a flow. I’m having a hard time finding the Goldilocks Zone (aka “just right”) without lots of fiddling. Also, the flow from the parrot was a little erratic.

You are suggesting I’m running too hot and I should reduce heat or increase cooling. Could be right, but I’ve thought this over several times and run myself in a circle! Reducing heat power seems easy, that other still brand has a power controller kit that looks simple enough to build. Or I could remove my cooling return hose located pre-PC, but either of those ideas seems to put me back at square one…. I think I’m missing something fundamental to how I control the cooling. Sounds like you need a finer way to control the coolant flow and or power to the elements. Gate valves will be quite difficult due to how coarse they control flow. I use these liquid flow meters and know a fair few other do as well.
Image
Enable 0 to +2.0 LPM flow to your condenser.
Easy to read graduations and makes repeating runs a whole lot easier than trying to turn a gate valve knob and knowing where its at.

It will come down to a balancing act between how much power you are throwing at it, how efficient your condenser is and how fine you can control your coolant. I have a very efficient condenser and as a result I need to throw at least 3600W of power into my still before I am about to get repeatable results with how I set my coolant flow.

If I run >3000W power I have to control the coolant flow with barely a trickle between 0.1 - 0.3LPM, whilst at 3600W I can sit comfortable on 0.5 - 0.6LPM and hold a steady toothpick stream at 2.5L hour.

A power controller would also help, I have one on one of my element. If I need more heat I turn it up and adjust the coolant flow respectively.

Each still will be different and you'll learn how to run yours over time.

Hope that helps.
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:43 am

Zak Griffin wrote:Get yourself a needle valve for RC control :handgestures-thumbupleft:


Upon googling needle valves, those look great. I could possibly eliminate my cooling return and use a needle valve in-place or in-conjunction with the gate valve. Any idea where I should look for a needle valve or specifications/types I might need. There seems to be a gazillion on line...
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:06 pm

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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby PeterC » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:36 pm

The flow meters in the photo above looks fantastic. I use a pump with a "Y" in my IBC so leaks don't matter then a separate line to RC & PC. PC has a ball valve full on. RC has a needle valve like this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DN15-1-2-Hig ... 2749.l2649 I still manage the cooling in the last quarter turn of the valve. To monitor this I have the return hose clamped so I can see the flow back in the tank. It is very low flow. I used to be able to piddle faster in my younger days. For a controller, I built one with a volt meter in it but I also have one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/220V-4000W-A ... 2749.l2649 which works OK but on another post someone suggested using a UK adapter plug in that socket first as the AU ones do not make good contact. That is an excellent idea.
Regards,
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:02 pm

PeterC wrote:The flow meters in the photo above looks fantastic. I use a pump with a "Y" in my IBC so leaks don't matter then a separate line to RC & PC. PC has a ball valve full on. RC has a needle valve like this http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DN15-1-2-Hig ... 2749.l2649 I still manage the cooling in the last quarter turn of the valve. To monitor this I have the return hose clamped so I can see the flow back in the tank. It is very low flow. I used to be able to piddle faster in my younger days. For a controller, I built one with a volt meter in it but I also have one of these http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/220V-4000W-A ... 2749.l2649 which works OK but on another post someone suggested using a UK adapter plug in that socket first as the AU ones do not make good contact. That is an excellent idea.
Regards,
PeterC


The cooling side of you system sounds much like mine, but with the needle valve added before the RC. I'm going to check out needle valves at the local hose supplier. Regarding the heat controller, is this necessary if you have good cooling control. I was under the impression from multiple threads (inc Mac's Running a Plate Column the Easy Way) that a controller would be unnecessary on 100L boiler with 80L wash and 2400w. Should I turn my heat down from 2400W?
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby PeterC » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:10 pm

I am as new to this as you but twin 2400W elements with both on for heating and just one after that is common but many people seem to use a bit more power so a controller on the second element is also common. Some run 3600W on a run so I don't think you need to go lower from 2400W, just improve your cooling control. So long as your plates don't flood and your RC can cope it makes controlling the cooling flow a bit easier with more power. My run I just did with a new setup had a bit of flooding on the top plate a first, maybe too much power, it settled down after awhile running 1 element. I have 2 x 2200W. elements. I have 4 plates and got 92% for almost all the run at 2.4 L/hour. I slowed it to 1.7 to see if the abv would go up but there was no change. Toward the end of the run the abv went to 90% for the last couple of 300ml cuts then the bottom plate started to run dry (window fogs up) the temperature started to rise and the abv drops. I turned off the RC cooling and collected another 2 litres after that as the abv dropped to 25% and the temperature climbed to 95C and the plates each successively ran dry. I think you should collect the tails for future feints runs.

My 2cent's worth
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Lowie » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:34 pm

PeterC wrote:I am as new to this as you but twin 2400W elements with both on for heating and just one after that is common but many people seem to use a bit more power so a controller on the second element is also common. Some run 3600W on a run so I don't think you need to go lower from 2400W, just improve your cooling control. (If you are able to control your power then you will use less water).So long as your plates don't flood and your RC can cope it makes controlling the cooling flow a bit easier with more power. My run I just did with a new setup had a bit of flooding on the top plate a first, maybe too much power, it settled down after awhile running 1 element. I have 2 x 2200W. elements. I have 4 plates and got 92% for almost all the run at 2.4 L/hour. (Spot on)I slowed it to 1.7 to see if the abv would go up but there was no change. Toward the end of the run the abv went to 90% for the last couple of 300ml cuts then the bottom plate started to run dry (window fogs up) - (That's tails coming in) the temperature started to rise and the abv drops. I turned off the RC cooling (essentially putting it into pot still mode) and collected another 2 litres after that as the abv dropped to 25% and the temperature climbed to 95C and the plates each successively ran dry. I think you should collect the tails for future feints runs.

My 2cent's worth
PeterC

My 3cents worth... :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:20 pm

Lots of good info there guys. Putting that altogether, looks like I should consider both better RC control with a needle valve and also a power controller. Regarding the power control, are you suggesting I use it with a single element during the run, thus controlling for less than 2400w? Or leave one heater full blast (2400w) and control the 2nd heater for a total 2400-4800w?

PeterC, you mentioned "flooding the plates". Having never seen a plate still running, other than my own, I'm not sure if I have too much liquid up there. When I ran my whiskey, there was lots of vigorous bubbling and probably 1cm of fluid on each plate. This sound right or should it just be vapor in there?

The other idea that occurred to me, could I have my plates upside down??? I installed my plates with 5x bubble caps upwards and 1x downwards, like the photo below. However, on my down-facing cap I don't think I have the silver metal tubes above and below the down cap. I think the down cap fits snug to the plate and there isn't much above the plate in this position. Are there different FSD plate styles or have I stuffed something up?

Image
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Lowie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:39 pm

Heat up with both elements to get to temperature quickly then disconnect one of them for the run. Instead of rushing out and buying a controller, first get yourself a needle valve so you can control your water flow as you might find you're happy with the amount fo water you are using for the 2400w heat.
Your plates are installed correctly mate.
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby PeterC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:40 pm

There are plenty of Youtube videos of bubblers and glassers running. Yours sounds fine, it fills up to the top of the downcomer cap and overflows. You should see a steady stream coming out in the sight glass below. Here are pictures of mine normal and flooding a bit. Mine settled down after a bit of running. Am told it could be initially the higher water content not flowing back as quickly but as the abv stabilises it runs ok.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Sam. on Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quote
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby scythe » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:34 pm

Boreneogoat: maybe you have use a bubble cap as your down comer?
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:10 pm

Hmm, could be. However, the plates came assembled with the caps installed and I haven't fiddled with them.
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Re: First run done, now some questions.

Postby Borneogoat » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:15 am

I ran another batch of Rye Bread Whiskey on Saturday. Hooray for needle valves! :handgestures-thumbupleft: Much easier to control the RC when it was time to make some product. Good bye gate valve, good bye extra return hose, and no need to adjust the pump anymore. The product coming out the parrot was a bit variable (faster, then slower, repeat), but stayed in a good range: 1-2L/hr @ 93.5% ABV. Is this variable flow something I need to address? Not sure why it is happening, all the factors I can think of are stable (cooling volume, cooling water temp, weather). My deck is a little off-level, so the tube/plates/RC are probably 5-10 deg tilted, but the PC/parrot side is <5 deg off straight-up. That make a difference or not important?

Also, I collected about 5.5L at 93.5% and then it dropped to 75%'ish in a 5mins I wasn't staring at the alcometer. Kept dropping steadily from there. I finished that jar and shut down. This sound right for a FSD Nuetralizer?
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