Clearing agent before distilling

Just starting out and need some advise? then post it in here.

Clearing agent before distilling

Postby flamehawk » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:39 pm

Gents, I've read a few bits about yeast cells bursting giving off flavours. Does anyone use a clearing agent to cause cells to precipitate out of solution
flamehawk
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:43 pm
equipment: 4 plate custom built bubbler
50k Keg
2400w element

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby db1979 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:53 pm

Most just let their washes settle before filling the boiler.
db1979
 
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:47 pm
Location: South of the big smoke in banana bender land.
equipment: 4" 4 plate solid state bubbler (sieve plates) on a keg boiler with 2 x 2000 W elements.
Virtually retired: 2" 4 plate solid state bubbler (1" bubble caps, no sight glasses) on a 7.6L boiler (SS stock pot with SS mixing bowl lid), 2000 W.

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby flamehawk » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:02 pm

What is the average time post fermentation?
flamehawk
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:43 pm
equipment: 4 plate custom built bubbler
50k Keg
2400w element

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby db1979 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:09 pm

I think it will depend on many things, type of wash, yeast, temperature, abv. Have a read through the relevant thread for the wash you are interested in and you should see the occasional mention of the time others leave it to settle for. I tend to run my weetbix washes as soon as they have finished fermenting, they don't tend to settle out very well anyway.
db1979
 
Posts: 891
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:47 pm
Location: South of the big smoke in banana bender land.
equipment: 4" 4 plate solid state bubbler (sieve plates) on a keg boiler with 2 x 2000 W elements.
Virtually retired: 2" 4 plate solid state bubbler (1" bubble caps, no sight glasses) on a 7.6L boiler (SS stock pot with SS mixing bowl lid), 2000 W.

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Plumby » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:47 pm

When I was making tpw I use to put my 30 litre fermenter in my temperature controlled brewing fridge and set it to 1 degree. Leave it in there for a week and it would clear nicely, in winter I would take the blankets and heat belt off and sit the fermenter outside on the cold concrete for a week of two.
In the end I gave up trying to clear it as the ones I ran straight away when fermentation had stopped tasted the same as the ones I had let settle and clear.
The biggest thing to stopping off flavours in a tpw I found were, good temp control don't let it get over 25 degrees, i brewed a lot if tpw in winter for this reason and yeast choice, ec118 works well but takes a little longer and doesn't like the heat too much.
Plumby
 
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:19 am
Location: South East Queensland
equipment: 50 litre keg boiler with a 2200watt element and a 2 inch pot still called Shaniqua with a 32mm over 19mm 800mm long liebig condenser attached.

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby wynnum1 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:01 am

You could use a filter that would probably work out cheaper then a clearing agent .
wynnum1
 
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:18 pm

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby flamehawk » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:52 am

Flocking agents are cheap, effective and fast. I'm just wondering if anyone bothers
flamehawk
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:43 pm
equipment: 4 plate custom built bubbler
50k Keg
2400w element

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Professor Green » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:22 am

I wouldn't bother with clearing agents. Most of the recipes we use here clear themselves over the course of a few days to a week once fermentation is complete. The best method to avoid off flavours is to keep your yeasties happy by not stressing them with excess heat during fermentation and not shocking them when you pitch.

Cheers,
Prof. Green.
Professor Green
Mentor
 
Posts: 1463
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:10 pm
Location: Victoria
equipment: FSD 100 litre milk can with 2 x 2400W elements
FSD Neutraliser
FSD Carter Head
12 litre double boiler with 2400W element

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby woodduck » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:51 am

Never bothered with any of the crap they sell you at the hbs. I try to keep my washes as natural as possible, no additives if I can help it. I've never had any problems from not clearing properly. Best practice would be to clear them though.
woodduck
Moderator
 
Posts: 2633
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:54 pm
Location: Good old country SA
equipment: 4 plate 6" copper bubbler, 6 plate 4" glass bubbler with 500mm packed section three way thumper sitting on a 50 ltr keg boiler with 6000watts, 2" pot still and a 2" boka.

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby wynnum1 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:27 am

Can get a washable beer filter that does not seem to be popular with beer or probably able to use a sand filter but think have to use pressure to filter to speed up.
wynnum1
 
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:18 pm

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:00 am

I have a strong interest in this also.

My experience is that inadequate clearing appears to lead to longer tails although, as we all know, there are so many variables involved that it is difficult to be absolutely certain, but the one time I allowed a considerable amount of time for clearing (3 weeks) I had the best yield I have ever had. My problem in doing that is a) added risk of infection, and b) longer disruption to the laundry :-(.

I generally run the FFV and others claim a much quicker settling than I get, but I have to say that even after 3 weeks I wouldn't have called the wash "clear" just "clearer".

I have taken a couple of 1.25L softdrink bottle sized samples to experiment with.

I have determined that, left to it's own devices, my FFV wash *never* clears entirely.
Another thing is that refrigerating the wash clears it (to my satisfaction) in a couple of days.

My conclusion is that, at (my) room temperature, Brownian motion is enough to keep a lot of the yeast in suspension indefinitely and that refrigeration and/or clearing agents are necessary to produce the level of clarity I would prefer. I have to now decide whether the extra quality of product is worth the expense of some kind of refrigeration or clearing agent solution.
Bundaboy
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW
equipment: MH-943/s water distiller
Some parts in the shed for something more "traditional", 2" MacBoka atop a 50L SS keg fitted with 2 x 2400W weldless elements (with guards).

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Mattq71 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:02 pm

I generally have good success using McKenzies Gelatine powder from IGA for about $2.50 for a jar that will last for ages.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/06/ho ... latin.html

Cold crashing works well though if you have an appropriate fridge/freezer setup.
Mattq71
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:41 pm
equipment: 2"pot still with liebig condenser (home-made), Copper T500, AlcoEngine Pot Still.
2x200L water drums for recirc.

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:45 pm

Mattq71 wrote:I generally have good success using McKenzies Gelatine powder from IGA for about $2.50 for a jar that will last for ages.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/06/ho ... latin.html

Cold crashing works well though if you have an appropriate fridge/freezer setup.


Coincidently I was looking for some gelatine for my last batch but couldn't find any, I hadn't tried IGA.

Do you use it at room temperature or chilled as in the article you linked to?
Bundaboy
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW
equipment: MH-943/s water distiller
Some parts in the shed for something more "traditional", 2" MacBoka atop a 50L SS keg fitted with 2 x 2400W weldless elements (with guards).

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby wynnum1 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:12 pm

Bundaboy wrote:I have a strong interest in this also.

My experience is that inadequate clearing appears to lead to longer tails although, as we all know, there are so many variables involved that it is difficult to be absolutely certain, but the one time I allowed a considerable amount of time for clearing (3 weeks) I had the best yield I have ever had. My problem in doing that is a) added risk of infection, and b) longer disruption to the laundry :-(.

I generally run the FFV and others claim a much quicker settling than I get, but I have to say that even after 3 weeks I wouldn't have called the wash "clear" just "clearer".

I have taken a couple of 1.25L softdrink bottle sized samples to experiment with.

I have determined that, left to it's own devices, my FFV wash *never* clears entirely.
Another thing is that refrigerating the wash clears it (to my satisfaction) in a couple of days.

My conclusion is that, at (my) room temperature, Brownian motion is enough to keep a lot of the yeast in suspension indefinitely and that refrigeration and/or clearing agents are necessary to produce the level of clarity I would prefer. I have to now decide whether the extra quality of product is worth the expense of some kind of refrigeration or clearing agent solution.

When refrigerate it stops the yeast that may be part why it clears better when cold.
wynnum1
 
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:18 pm

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:56 pm

wynnum1 wrote:When refrigerate it stops the yeast that may be part why it clears better when cold.


Yes the yeast goes to "sleep" in the cold, but they also go to sleep when they run out of food, but I suppose there is the argument that there is enough "food" available in the wash to keep a certain percentage of the yeast alive for quite a while, as I say there are many variables, none-the-less Brownian motion is well known to keep microscopic particulates in suspension in a liquid.

Actually, I have not seen any claim or evidence that yeast can "swim" (anyone?), so whether they are awake or not they should still fall out of suspension. OTOH the fact they are excreting CO2 and alcohol whilst they are awake may be enough to keep them afloat, then again, the sheer number of yeast cells should cause the average displacement of the yeast due to those factors as a whole to be zero, and therefore gravity would take over (anyone?).

Note: Please equate awake with active and asleep with "non active" if you are a purest, I accept any "looseness" of terminology criticism.

An animation of the basics of Brownian motion, although the yellow dot should be farting CO2 and pissing alcohol.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _large.gif
Last edited by Bundaboy on Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bundaboy
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW
equipment: MH-943/s water distiller
Some parts in the shed for something more "traditional", 2" MacBoka atop a 50L SS keg fitted with 2 x 2400W weldless elements (with guards).

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Mattq71 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:58 pm

Bundaboy wrote:
Mattq71 wrote:I generally have good success using McKenzies Gelatine powder from IGA for about $2.50 for a jar that will last for ages.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/06/ho ... latin.html

Cold crashing works well though if you have an appropriate fridge/freezer setup.


Coincidently I was looking for some gelatine for my last batch but couldn't find any, I hadn't tried IGA.

Do you use it at room temperature or chilled as in the article you linked to?


Either has been fine for me, but I mostly use it at room temperature.

http://www.google.com.au/shopping/produ ... gJy2fD_BwE
Last edited by Mattq71 on Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mattq71
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:41 pm
equipment: 2"pot still with liebig condenser (home-made), Copper T500, AlcoEngine Pot Still.
2x200L water drums for recirc.

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:07 pm

Mattq71 wrote:Either has been fine for me, but I mostly use it at room temperature.


Excellent, and now I know it exists I am finding it everywhere, the moral of the story is never ask advice from someone younger than yourself.
Bundaboy
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW
equipment: MH-943/s water distiller
Some parts in the shed for something more "traditional", 2" MacBoka atop a 50L SS keg fitted with 2 x 2400W weldless elements (with guards).

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:36 pm

Here is a diagram of what you could expect from the distribution of yeast cells for any given temperature, the distribution will always be greater in the lower region due to gravity, but the higher the temperature (energy) the greater the number of yeast cells there will be in the upper region. This is, of course, what we do see, but it also means that there will be a limit to "clarity" dependent on temperature rather than time unless some "fining" agent is introduced, which, of course, means that particulates of greater mass than the yeast cells "drag" the yeast to the bottom.

It also means, however, that if the cycle of temperature differentiation falls low enough over any period of time, that the wash will clarify naturally as the yeast cells will "clump" at the bottom. This explains why Ted, who lives in a cooler climate, may experience better clarification with time than I do. It may also explain why people who live in warmer climes BUT use air conditioning, may also experience greater clarification.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... amboge.jpg
Bundaboy
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW
equipment: MH-943/s water distiller
Some parts in the shed for something more "traditional", 2" MacBoka atop a 50L SS keg fitted with 2 x 2400W weldless elements (with guards).

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby hillzabilly » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:43 pm

I have found a good stir with a paddle and then a whiz with the paintstirrer to degas the wash after fermentation is complete ,wash's seem ta clear quicker that way after CO2 has been removed and there is no bubbling,as this will keep yeast and trub in suspension too,and yes too chilling after fermentation to speed clearing and keeping bad bugs at bay.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:
hillzabilly
Mentor
 
Posts: 1261
Images: 0
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:18 pm
Location: PERTH WEST AUSSIE
equipment: 10 gallon OZARK pot still ,2inch and 3inch Nixon Stone coloum stills ,10 and 18 gal beer keg boilers,5gal thumper keg.And the one and only 4" Five Star Southern Cross .

Re: Clearing agent before distilling

Postby Bundaboy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:04 am

hillzabilly wrote:I have found a good stir with a paddle and then a whiz with the paintstirrer to degas the wash after fermentation is complete ,wash's seem ta clear quicker that way after CO2 has been removed and there is no bubbling,as this will keep yeast and trub in suspension too,and yes too chilling after fermentation to speed clearing and keeping bad bugs at bay.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:


Yes, I should have mentioned the presence of CO2 in wash after fermentation but in my case I always rack off into four fermenting barrels and degas during that process, however, who is to say that there isn't still some residual CO2 even after that, it's a difficult thing to measure, but as far as I can ascertain the wash is "flat" as I always use an airlock after racking and see no evidence of gassing.

I should also mention that in my "sample experiments" the sediment "appears" to be all yeast (again that's a difficult thing to determine exactly but there doesn't seem to be any layering which I believe is indicative of the difference between yeast and trub?).
Bundaboy
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:58 pm
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW
equipment: MH-943/s water distiller
Some parts in the shed for something more "traditional", 2" MacBoka atop a 50L SS keg fitted with 2 x 2400W weldless elements (with guards).

Next

Return to Beginners Questions



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

x