Changing ph

[Amberale]

Thanks mate.
It has very Fn cold here lately so even with heat mats and aquarium heaters things hve been cool.
I’ll try my next wash at 6ish and see if it makes a difference.
It makes sense that that early vigorous ferment produces a lot of carbonic acid and changes the PH.
Lots of un in this. :)

[Jono]

Wow. Full respect to those who understand chemistry. I never did it at school but now I'm thinking I'm better off as who knows what things I would have made and ingested?

[Triangle]

It makes sense that that early vigorous ferment produces a lot of carbonic acid and changes the PH.

If you degas CO2, you will prevent some of it from forming Carbonic Acid and therefore the artificial rise in pH. I would do this anyway during a ferment to introduce oxygen into the environment.

Also I saw your previous post about using Calcium Carbonate, it can take a while to work and is best added to a small part of your juice and then that added to the main juice slowly....as in over a period of hours. I'd wait 24 hours and retest pH before proceeding.

[Triangle]

I haven't looked into what you're making but Fermaid 0 will help with buffering, as well as potassium carbonate. Plus the K2CO3 will help with ferments in higher alcohol stages.

[Amberale]

It makes sense that that early vigorous ferment produces a lot of carbonic acid and changes the PH.

If you degas CO2, you will prevent some of it from forming Carbonic Acid and therefore the artificial rise in pH. I would do this anyway during a ferment to introduce oxygen into the environment.

Also I saw your previous post about using Calcium Carbonate, it can take a while to work and is best added to a small part of your juice and then that added to the main juice slowly....as in over a period of hours. I'd wait 24 hours and retest pH before proceeding.

Thanks Mate, by Degas, do you means stir the bejeezus out of it after 24 hours to release the gas?

I’m not overly concerned about the PH as my washes ferment out but I’m gonna try a starting PH of about 6-6.5 and see what happens on my next wash.

[bluc]

I have added 2l volume of fine shell grit(like coarse beach sand) and my ph goes from 3 to 4.5 and in day or two ph is back round 3. Sour mash past 5 gens is kicking my ass is there someway to test for other reasons for slow fermentation and persistant stalling?
Everything i read says 5.5ph start 3-3.5ph end. I have seen ferments crash to 3 under 36hrs and not drop in gravity at all..
My rum starts at 6 and finishs dry in 3 days sour mash starts 4.5-5 average and crachs to 3 sometimes it ferments other times it just refuses to ferment at all. Only thing I have found is lacto causes ph drop but trustworthy sources tell me theirs ferment fine with strong lacto presence.
I even pitched a whole tube lowans into 10l wash. Looked like it got it going in bucket Added to main vessel and pffft half way fermented stalled. Is giving me the shits...

[EziTasting]

:angry-banghead:
I am in the same boat as you, bluc.

we are special!!! :teasing-tease:

[bluc]

:angry-banghead:
I am in the same boat as you, bluc.

we are special!!! :teasing-tease:

:laughing-rolling: have you got your ticket ezi? If not you better be quick :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Wobblyboot]

What is the ph of ur water u use bluc? How much backset do u use? I had a few washes stall, ph was always the problem :-B

[bluc]

Ph has been 7 everytime I take it on limited data average start is 4.5-5 on sour mash rum is 6.
I use 10l backset in 180l volume. There is approx 10l corn pudding/ yeast trub as wellI currently have gen 8 on.

I added zero backset and it started on 4.5ph (its been limping since 4) it has taken 3 weeks and has dropped 20 gravity points 1.055 to 1.035 and looks like it has stalled again.
This time I added shell grit at start rather than when it stalled has made zero difference. Ther ferment temp is 26c. Have been using aquarium heater. But ambient temp is back up in mid 30"s now.
I started gen one using safspirit american whiskey yeast 3 days ago I bombed it with a whole tube bakers and has made no difference.. :twisted:

[Wobblyboot]

I used 25l backset in last 120l mash, finished In 4-5 days

[bluc]

Yea i must have something else going on is doing my head in :angry-banghead:
Is there a lab that will test a sample of wort and tell you whats in it bacteria wise? Maybe I should get new fermenters.

[bluc]

I should add that at 5 gens all grain and yeast is replaced. Only the backset carries it to next gen...

[EziTasting]

.... Maybe I should get new fermenters.

Interesting point!


I wonder..... :think:

[bluc]

But when I think about it only place for manky is drain assembly...

[Wobblyboot]

Dunno. Clean an sterilize ur fermenters will cut that out :handgestures-thumbupleft: no need to buy more, they not the prob :wtf: I only ever got rid of half grain of doing uj(bwko) think it made it to 20gen before I swapped to ag without a prob

[db1979]

I think your problem is because you've set up a buffer in your backset. Buffering has the effect that addition of alkaline to an acid solution doesn't appear to raise the pH (or addition of acid to alkaline solution doesn't appear to lower the pH). Buffers occur when you have a weak acid in the presence of its conjugate weak base or with weak bases in the presence of its conjugate weak acid. Very confusing concept for most, and often not well explained.

Simple solution would be to use less backset or start fresh with no backset.

If you want to know what buffers are... I'll try and explain them. :?
Most people who remember some high school science of acids and bases will remember that acids donate hydrogen. Well when they do, they then become a base because it's also possible that they accept a hydrogen back again, but it's unlikely for many acids to do this because they are happy without their hydrogen. Acids that give up their hydrogen very easily and don't want it back are called strong acids. Weak acids are ones that will give up their hydrogen but could quite easily have it back again. When in the form that might want their hydrogen back again, they are known as the conjugate base of the acid. A buffer is a mixture of a weak acid with significant amounts of its conjugate base. The mixture can react with acid that is added (because the conjugate base will react with the added acid) and it can also react with base that is added (because the weak acid will react with the added base) and the effect seen is no significant change in pH. pH doesn't change because pH is a measure of how much hydrogen is floating around and not attached to acids or base molecules. The buffer makes sure this amount of hydrogen floating around is kept pretty constant, hence no change in pH.

With addition of more acid or base, the buffer can be broken (get to a pH range where the buffer effect is no longer seen), but it's hard to know just how much to add.

Bluc, did you add extra citric acid, Epsom salt or DAP with each new gen?

[bluc]

Ok that completeley went over my head no dap or citric or anything else except shell grit at about 2l fine grind shell.added. Just backset and more sugar. This gen there was no backset added but about 10l corn pudding yeast trub in bottom. Starting ph 4.5. And after 2 weeks has dropped 20 points.
Edit so I should keep adding shell grit till ph rises? Being able to stop it crashing in the first place would be a bigger plus...

[db1979]

No I reckon you should start fresh with no backset. Maybe freeze some backset in case it happens to be your fermenters being infected.

[bluc]

You would think the backset would be sterile coming from 2+ hours boiling. Maybe as you say could be fermenter. Will do a no chill cube backset. Then dissasemble and sanitize drain assembly..