Neutral spirit taste descriptions...

[clearspirit]

“I don't know about art but I know what I like” SO applies to making cuts and blending, however...

First up I'll declare I have a Turbo 500 / T500 and successfully made at least 10 Still Spirits Turbo Yeast (Classic 6?) brews as per the manufacturer's ingredients and instructions which tasted good enough for me and anyone else who tried it and didn't give me hangovers (after filtering at 1 drop/sec, 2 drops/sec as per instructions was still too rough and flavoursome for me). Then I wanted better taste, so I tried two Birdwatcher's Recipes / Tomato Paste Wash / TPW with different starting SG, one with Wine Nutrient (DAP plus vitamins and Minerals) , and a Freddy's Fast Fermenting Vodka / FFV / TFFV, all with varying not quite worth the effort success with flavour and yield.

So I replaced the plastic with copper and bought a Voltage Regulator (Andrew! ;) ) from 5 Star Brewing and Distilling Supplies, because I'm a pensioner and can't afford to buy anything better, and have started using it in pot-still mode for stripping runs (remove packing, bypass reflux cooling) to create Low-Wines, then a spirit run with the Low-Wines diluted to half way up the urn which ends up <40% (last run 20%ABV at 80% power which turned out best yet!), with packing and reflux cooling at drip, drip, drip, dribble (not dribble, dribble, drip – there is a huge difference) ignoring the temperature. AND for harm minimisation purposes I'm only interested in drinking spirits with the least congeners ie the purest ethanol I can make, hence my username. Now we've gotten that out of the way...

Given we can get at best roughly 93%ABV out of a reflux column before temperature correction, that's 7% flavour. And the difference between using raw sugar and dextrose for exactly the same yeast/ nutrients/ process is surprisingly noticeable. Maybe not so surprising once I learned dextrose/glucose is immediately available to yeast, but any other type of sugar has to be broken down by the yeast TO dextrose/glucose first, which then creates byproducts / congeners which create unwanted flavours (and wanted!) and burn, and hangovers.

So when I want to compare my own notes between brews so I can continuously improve, I feel like there are flavours there that I can't quite describe properly. It's like the first time I heard “pepper” when describing a shiraz I really liked, and “citrus” and “passionfruit” in a sav blanc and I went “YES!!! THAT'S IT!!!”

So in the interests of improved comparison could I ask my neutral spirit stilling colleagues (we'll be here all year if we include rum/ whiskey/ bourbon/ gin... maybe a separate thread?) for the words you use / feel / think when you're making (neutral spirit) cuts? Mine so far are -
cardboard - mild, mild-med, med, med-high, high, yuk;
yeasty - mild, mild-med, med, med-high, high, yuk;
burn - almost no burn/warming with mild burn finish (this has only so far happened once mid hearts), mild, mild-med, med, med-high, high, ouch;
neutral / good;
sweet – haven't yet made or noticed various levels. So far has only happened with one yeast (Pure Distilling Premium Spirit Yeast) and raw sugar, mid hearts.

And in the interests of sharing knowledge and learning, perhaps your observations or best guesses about where both my and your descriptions come from ie heads, hearts, tails, different yeasts, nutrients if any, sugars, starting and finishing SG's?

If I've glossed over details that raise questions, I'm happy to explain - I feel there's no nobler effort than taking the time to share knowledge and experience (might even be the meaning of life? Cooperation?)

Oh, and lastly, I have Autism (and ADHD and Depression) and I've observed that I get excited about stuff no-one else gives a shit about, so if no-one replies I won't be offended. But if you've thought about this too, then let's see if we can learn something from each other...

[BigRig]

Hey cs, you are on an alcohol forum with like minded members, we all have the same passion and excitement you do. We all give a shit about your post and questions :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Neutral i do tpw and i use sweet, sugary, spicy, wet dog, wet cardboard, banana, pineapple, dirty, chemical, paint stripper. Sensations i encounter prickly, tingly, hot and thin.

Rum i use sweet, caramel, popcorn, treacle, licorice, banana, pineapple, vanilla. Sensations i encounter prickly, tingly, warm, smooth, oily, puke, legs and mouth feel.

Bourbon AG i use straw, grassy, grainy, farmy, caramel, corn, popcorn, spicy, wet dog, wet cardboard and dirty.
Sensations i encounter prickly, tingly, hot, harsh and mouth feel.

I hope this helps.

[Wellsy]

Hello clear spirit

Just a very small point mate, 93% abv does not mean you have 7% flavour, I believe it means you have 7% flavour.

As I said just a small thing mate but I did not want you to get hung up on the wrong thing.

We all care about what we do mate and are all here to help each other

[B-Man]

If you water your run down and run it again you will clean it up more by making that 7% more pure of water. Than other flavours.

I also found with my short stint on the t500 that voltage controlling it was counter productive the more I turned the boil down the more I had to turn the water down. That then created a hotter output.
I felt like the run that came out cooler tasted better.

[clearspirit]

Hey cs, you are on an alcohol forum with like minded members, we all have the same passion and excitement you do. We all give a shit about your post and questions :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Neutral i do tpw and i use sweet, sugary, spicy, wet dog, wet cardboard, banana, pineapple, dirty, chemical, paint stripper. Sensations i encounter prickly, tingly, hot and thin.

Rum i use sweet, caramel, popcorn, treacle, licorice, banana, pineapple, vanilla. Sensations i encounter prickly, tingly, warm, smooth, oily, puke, legs and mouth feel.

Bourbon AG i use straw, grassy, grainy, farmy, caramel, corn, popcorn, spicy, wet dog, wet cardboard and dirty.
Sensations i encounter prickly, tingly, hot, harsh and mouth feel.

I hope this helps.

Banana! THAT's what I couldn't pick :happy-partydance: And once I could get past that, I was able to notice the sweetness which refined to raw sugar (not quite caramel) and pineapple. You've opened Pandora's box ;-)

So - it REALLY helps. Awesome! Thanks!

[clearspirit]

If you water your run down and run it again you will clean it up more by making that 7% more pure of water. Than other flavours.

I also found with my short stint on the t500 that voltage controlling it was counter productive the more I turned the boil down the more I had to turn the water down. That then created a hotter output.
I felt like the run that came out cooler tasted better.

Weird - I can run a full 25L urn at 70% power with very little cooling water (CW) outlet flow (I describe it as 'long snake' because it snakes/does not fill down the tube in a long lazy undulation) with drip drip drip dribble and cool product output but i have to make constant CW adjustments (which incidentally is 53C as my primary focus is balancing power and CW to get drip drip drip dribble) When I go to 75% power and CW at 'bubble stream' (mainly bubbles with semi-regular sections of 'stream' which does fill the tube - not much more needle valve than 'long snake') I can get stable cool output drip drip drip dribble, which I use for most of the run (which also coincidentally (?) happens to be 53C).

Unfortunately, before I got a voltage regulator I never made notes about CW flow, only the temp variations at which 200ml cut/sample bottle, and never stuck my finger under the product output so don't know if it was cool or hot. Didn't know or think to try...

'Cooler tasted better' somehow makes sense. I'm can't figure out how that relates to our different experiences with fixed and adjustable power. I do know that it's taken me several runs to find a working balance between power and CW. And now I have notes over several distillations with various sugar washes I'm going to go back to my original (maybe 15 happy brews at the beginning) 6kg Production Pack at 100% power with no stripping run just to see if all the extra muck-around is worth it... ;-)

[clearspirit]

Hello clear spirit

Just a very small point mate, 93% abv does not mean you have 7% flavour, I believe it means you have 7% flavour.

As I said just a small thing mate but I did not want you to get hung up on the wrong thing.

We all care about what we do mate and are all here to help each other

I appreciate you taking the time to reply Wellsy, but I'm confused (just for a change ;-) )

I thought 93% ABV meant 93% of the total volume is ethanol (which includes the various flavours absorbed by the ethanol) which means the remaining 7% has to be water and non-alcoholic flavours. Is this correct?

And maybe I'm missing a perhaps not so subtle nuance here (I AM Aspie) but this "...does not mean you have 7% flavour, I believe it means you have 7% flavour." seems like it's saying "it does not mean it, but it does mean it" What am I missing here?
Cheers! :)

[Wellsy]

Hello clear
The only thing you are missing is me not doing a proof read , was meant you say 7% would be water.
The flavour you have will be across everything both alcohol and water.
Stick with it and use your senses to make cuts, the science stuff is usually just a guide as to where to start tasting and smelling. Having said that this caper is all about what works for you and what you enjoy. What I call heads you might call firey boost, what you call tails I might call pulpy goodness. If you enjoy what you produce mate that is all that matters

[B-Man]

Weird - I can run a full 25L urn at 70% power with very little cooling water (CW) outlet flow (I describe it as 'long snake' because it snakes/does not fill down the tube in a long lazy undulation) with drip drip drip dribble and cool product output but i have to make constant CW adjustments (which incidentally is 53C as my primary focus is balancing power and CW to get drip drip drip dribble) When I go to 75% power and CW at 'bubble stream' (mainly bubbles with semi-regular sections of 'stream' which does fill the tube - not much more needle valve than 'long snake') I can get stable cool output drip drip drip dribble, which I use for most of the run (which also coincidentally (?) happens to be 53C).

I do need to correct myself. the output temp may have been the same but the T500 water temperature was higher.
i could do a normal run around 40° on the water output temp but when I tried voltage controlling it I had to slow the water down and then the water temp ended up being hotter to let the output come out.

[clearspirit]

Hello clear
The only thing you are missing is me not doing a proof read , was meant you say 7% would be water.
The flavour you have will be across everything both alcohol and water.
Stick with it and use your senses to make cuts, the science stuff is usually just a guide as to where to start tasting and smelling. Having said that this caper is all about what works for you and what you enjoy. What I call heads you might call firey boost, what you call tails I might call pulpy goodness. If you enjoy what you produce mate that is all that matters

Bahahaha, also guilty :) (not proof reading ;))

I'm beginning to understand that 'flavour' will be included in both 'ethanol' and 'not ethanol' due to 'smearing'.

Even if we aim for 'neutral' we're going to get flavours as a result of our ingredients and whether our yeast needs to 'do' anything to break down the sugar before it can absorb it... (breaking down any sugar to the monosaccharide glucose so it can be absorbed through the cell wall will result in by-products/flavour both good and bad)

Yeah I'm slowly working out what gives me a headache tomorrow and it seems to be heads although I'm beginning to think it might relate to filtering, specifically double-filtering at 1drip/s...
Turns out I really like the flavour of heads but it gives me headaches and nausea the next day (classic hangover), and I really don't like the flavour of tails (yeast and wet cardboard for me) but it seems to not give me a classic hangover, but I'm VERY thick-headed and slow for a day afterwards...

Your reply kinda' reminds me of an anecdote from a friend's Russian vodka making mate - he throws the first third away, keeps the middle third for his friends, and drinks the last third...