Generations and backset

[cdbrown]

I'm up to the 6th gen of McStills bourbon knock off and have read conflicting info about how many gens you can run before ditching the corn/grains/yeast and starting fresh. Some say 7 is about the limit and then others have said they are well into the teens. Now I'm not sure whether the people up into the teens have replaced the corn/grain/yeast at all and are basing the generations on the amount of times they've stripped and then used the backset to get the next gen going.

Can anyone provide clear advice as to how many gens should the bourbon knock off be run with the same corn/grains/yeast staying in the fermenter?
Is it still a sour mash if you replace all the stuff in the fermenter because it's the backset providing the "souring"?
If I want to take a break from the bourbon run and do something different, can I save the backset in a large glass jar for later use in a fresh batch down the track? just a matter of reheating it and adding the corn/grains/sugar as if it was a 1st gen again (but soured from the backset)?

[emptyglass]

Mac would be the best one to answer this, but I would think about 8 gens about spends the ingredients. If you replace some grains every batch, you should be able to push it on indefinatly.

You can keep backset for the future, but you need to freeze it or it will go off . There is no alcohol left in it, or very little, not enough to provide a preservative effect that you get with fermented wash.
If you want to do something different, you may just want to run the bourbon wash till its spent, then ditch it. Do other stuff, then start bourbon again.
I just keep the first sweet run as feints. Its not wasted then.

[Kimbo]

+1 on what Empty said,
there is no definite rule as to the grain issue. there is a general understanding that when the grain floats, it's spent.
as Empty said if you swap a bit every generation (before it is spent) then it will go forever. ;-)

[Cane Toad]

+2 I even go as far as to keep some back set and grains in the freezer :handgestures-thumbupleft: Just in case I stuff something up,like not topping up the water in the airlock :doh:
I've also got a 9th gen Dunder in the freezer as well,haven't put a rum was down for about 4 months now,but will be this weekend :handgestures-thumbupleft:
I think 5Star is on about his 250th gen bourbon,well not quite that many,but lots anyway :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[R-sole]

Spent grain floating or turning white is a myth. I scoop out a bucket or so of grain evrey time i refill my 160l wash and replace it with some new corn and a bit of cracked malt.

If i forget to do it i can notice a lacking in the corn flavour on the next strip.

I have the same wash going for well over 50 gens (about three years or more) and it's as good as it ever was.


I reckon if you are using the same ingredients eight times you would have no flavour from the grains at all (and hence the backset) after the third one.
Your experience may be different to mine.

[cdbrown]

I am scooping out about 1/2L worth of grains once I've drained the liquid to the pot. Then will replace it with a blend of corn, flaked barley and wheat. So it sounds as though I can keep this going.

So does anyone know how to tell if the cracked corn is actually souring?

Maybe I'll just have to break out my other fermenter and have 3 different types of wash going.

[R-sole]

You can sour corn. Use Pint's method here, just don't worry about the steam mashing ect if you want to continue on the ujsm path.

It will definately give you the sour mash taste if you are sure that's what you're after.


You need to persevere through the whole sour mashing thing, even though it seems like it's awful. :))

http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... &hilit=pdf

IHaveDoneItPunkin

[cdbrown]

Perhaps the corn I had did sour from the backset like stated by McStill as the wash was had a slightly sour taste like champagne or cider.

There wouldn't be any point in trying to sour the corn I have by itself like in that post if it has preservatives which prevent souring. The 5 gens of using backset should have done that for me. One thing I will need to do is increase the time the corn/barley/wheat sits in the hot backset to encourage starch conversion. Normally I have put the backset in a bucket, added sugar, grains and citric acid and given it a good stir, then maybe 10mins later added it to the fermenter with cold water.

Could leaving the corn in the hot backset longer help increase the corn flavour?

[emptyglass]

If you want more corn flavor, add more corn. Or dial back on the other ingredients.

I like to go to about gen 3 or 4, adding backset, then start to replace some corn each batch after that. Sometimes I get lazy, or run out of corn, so I might not replace any on the occasional batch. I let it sit for a fair while too, maybe that helps "marinade" it a bit. Not sure what it does but it works for me.

A 60 litre fementer makes a good companion to a 50 litre boiler. Food for thought.

[cdbrown]

I've got a jar of corn maize with water - been sitting there for a few days and no activity so would seem I've got the one with preservatives :( Hopefully the one I've made with malted barley fairs better.

[Kimbo]

You can sour corn. Use Pint's method here, just don't worry about the steam mashing ect if you want to continue on the ujsm path.

It will definately give you the sour mash taste if you are sure that's what you're after.


You need to persevere through the whole sour mashing thing, even though it seems like it's awful. :))

http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... &hilit=pdf

IHaveDoneItPunkin

that's the way i do it all the time :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[cdbrown]

If the corn has preservatives - would it smell foul after about a week soaking in water? I can see some small bubbles in the jar, but nothing like what's shown in that thread on artisan. First it just smelled like a corn soup, but now when I take off the paper towel the smell is very unpleasant until I get used to it and I can then smell the corn soup again.

Is that a sign of no preservatives? Or just a sign that the corn is just going to crap and not actually souring?

[Kimbo]

Whenever i have soured my corn it smells rank(this is good)
it goes from a vomit smell to an off milk( or vice versa, i try not to smell it). It should look like it is fermenting(bubbles)
it is usually done in around a week.(a bit more maybe)
I havent tried it with preserved corn but i would assume it would take a lot longer, if at all. ;-)

[cdbrown]

Well it definitely smells bad that's for sure and it's been about a week. The first few days the temp might have been in the mid teens so might account for a lag in souring.

So kimbo do you follow the whole procedure as shown on the link - or just the souring part? Would you recommend starting a fresh wash with the sour corn jar or strip the 6th gen mcstill wash I've got and add it to the current corn/grain bed prior to adding the backset?

[Kimbo]

Well it definitely smells bad that's for sure and it's been about a week. The first few days the temp might have been in the mid teens so might account for a lag in souring.Correct, once it stops bubbling, its ready.

So kimbo do you follow the whole procedure as shown on the link - or just the souring part?just the souring part, the rest is as per Mac's knock off recipe Would you recommend starting a fresh wash with the sour corn jar or strip the 6th gen mcstill wash I've got and add it to the current corn/grain bed prior to adding the backset?

You could do either, I started with the soured corn. Why dont you strip your 6th gen, do a spirit run with those and start the 7th with the soured corn, that way you can see the difference. Or you could have a batch of each going ;-)

[cdbrown]

I've already done a spirit run on 1st-5th gen low wines. Suggesting I strip the 6th gen and then do a spirit run on the 4L of low wines?

So a McStill knock off with a pintoshine starter procedure - 25L batch

So do you take all the 2L of corn and put into jars to sour for a week, then dump the lot into some just boiled water with the barley and wheat and sugar (add citric acid? and vit B) and then let it cool before dumping it into the fermenter, top up with water and add yeast.

Or do you sour a smaller amount in a few jars, add two of the jars to the 2L of corn, add water and steep for a day before bringing up to the boil?

[Kimbo]

I've already done a spirit run on 1st-5th gen low wines. Suggesting I strip the 6th gen and then do a spirit run on the 4L of low wines?Keep the 4L of low wines from your 6th gen strip,

So a McStill knock off with a pintoshine starter procedure - 25L batchyes

So do you take all the 2L of corn and put into jars to sour for a week, then dump the lot into some just boiled water with the barley and wheat and sugar (add citric acid? and vit B) and then let it cool before dumping it into the fermenter, top up with water and add yeast.seeing as tho you have started, replace some of the corn in the fermenter with your soured stuff and your barley/wheat

Or do you sour a smaller amount in a few jars, add two of the jars to the 2L of corn, add water and steep for a day before bringing up to the boil?

i didnt boil mine, just straight into the fermenter, you could put the barley/wheat in with the hot backset to soften if you want. i sorta just made it up as i went. there's no hard and fast rule just what ever you feel like doing at the time. I did a 20L batch of corn and just kept scooping it out of the bucket as i needed to replace grains. from memory, i may have even put the wheat and barley in with the corn while souring

[cdbrown]

There's no vomit or off-milk smell coming from the jar. Smells like a crap filled nappy - it's disgusting. I'm thinking it's gone bad rather than soured.

[MacStill]

There's no vomit or off-milk smell coming from the jar. Smells like a crap filled nappy - it's disgusting. I'm thinking it's gone bad rather than soured.

I've got a 20 liter bucket of the shit caveman has going in my shed at the moment, going by the smell you describe it sounds just fine.

Even the dog wont go in there anymore :puke-huge:

I'll stick with my rum thanks :D

[cdbrown]

There's no vomit or off-milk smell coming from the jar. Smells like a crap filled nappy - it's disgusting. I'm thinking it's gone bad rather than soured.

I've got a 20 liter bucket of the shit caveman has going in my shed at the moment, going by the smell you describe it sounds just fine.

Even the dog wont go in there anymore :puke-huge:

I'll stick with my rum thanks :D

So does that mean it's in its second stage of bacteria before it goes sour? I would hate to pour this stuff into a fermenter and produce baby shit smelling wash.

With all this rum talk on this forum - are we talking bundy rum or something nice like bacardi rum?