Bicarb/Sodium Carbonate

[ticknaylor]

Just need a simple answer to this question, read the parent site site then read HD and got confused as fuck because the thread had so much shit in it. So here goes will sodium carbonate do the same as sodium bicarb and make the difference between the good and bad stuff more obvious or is it only good for stopping tails evaporate less easily. I've read all about amonia on stripping runs and all the other stuff involved i.e leaving bicarb for atleast a week etc, seems like everyone on HD not very clear on whether they both do the same thing. I did year 12 chemistry so i understand its going to be a freggin basic mix if ya add both. So what everyone else add? Heres the parent site stuff I spose what I'm asking is the does sodium carbonate offer the same 12 advantages outlined below that sodium bicarbonate offers. Any advice experience is much appreciated

Kind regards N.T.

.. try sodium carbonate @ 4.5 grams/ litre, add it when the wash temperatire is at 35-40 degrees C, add slowly then continue with your distillation in the normal manner. Sodium Carbonate is used in the production of soap and it combines with the oils to form a compound that does not evaporate at the normal distillation temperatures that we are using. Voila, cleaner spirit, less carbon treatment needed and more happy faces.
Alex finds
... that adding baking soda delineates the border between the good and the bad stuff very sharply. In regular distillation tails presence increases gradually and it is very difficult to decide when to start separating it from the good collection. In presence of baking soda this division is much more defined. (I added 3 full heaped table spoon of regular baking soda per liter of pure alcohol.)

Rob details the bicarb advantage too:
Assumptions and facts:
1. A well run column distillation will separate a mixture into fractions based on the boiling points of the components.
2. There will be some overlap in most real-life stills.
3. ethyl acetate can be smelled at very low concentrations
4. acetic acid cannot (it has a higher flavour threshold)
5. under neutral or acidic conditions acetic acid will esterify to some extent in the presence of ethanol.
6. sodium acetate is not volatile
7. sodium bicarbonate will neutralise acetic acid.
8. sodium bicarbonate may hydrolyse ethyl acetate to a greater or lesser extent.
9. Adding sodium bicarbonate at some point between a stripping run and final distillation has the effect of decreasing the volume of fractions collected which smell of ethyl acetate.
10. Adding sodium bicarbonate at some point between a stripping run and final distillation has the effect of making the main fraction "cleaner smelling"
11. without bicarb the main fraction _can_ smell of ethyl acetate (ymmv)
12. Sodium acetate is not esterified by ethanol.

[emptyglass]

Simple answer is to make good cuts, and deal with whats left later.
Truth is if you make good cuts, you will only be left with 1/12 of what you make as feints
You can choose to toss it, or get bogged down with 12 reasons/methods of how to recover it.
Just make it and keep the hearts for now, untill you work out if you want to add bi-carb to scrounge the rest.

[bt1]

+1 EG,

Especially if in learning curve...better to have a very clear repeatable understanding of cuts without variables like bicarb to develop your tastebuds.

Having said that, when doing some trial runs like the irish f'up, a double malted over the top ujsm f'up used bi carb in the low wines for a few weeks at lower than mentioned concentrations. I've heard and used in stripped low wines but would not suggest for a spirit run.

The point about ammonia and blue spirits should not be discounted lightly either. A few pts either way and its a throw away.

Just so the point is not lost, I've used bicarb only when the product trials are f'd and have nothing to lose...that's about where it belongs as a method imho.


bt1

[ticknaylor]

Yeah thanks i understand good cuts are vital thats why im interested because it makes the difference between fractions more obvious and i dont feel i have the best smell and taste skills when testing my 200ml jars. Still doesnt answer the question on whether sodium carbonate can do those 12 points that bicarb can because if it could it would be an advantage as u dont have to leave for a week or two it can go straight in the still no one on HD was clear in fact i doubt most of them knew that bicarb and sodium carbonate are different compounds

[ticknaylor]

The other thing is im not worried bout feints there really easy to tell temp rises slow introduction of wet dog thats not problem but the heads to hearts change over i struggle with seems im chuck heaps if the change over is sharper then it'll be easy for me i mean i chuck 2.4l of heads on my last run of 3 stripped tpw on a reflux still i know kiwi stillers guide says 2-3 litres but thats for a pot stil the fraction should be more compressed on a reflux still

[ticknaylor]

Problem solved using sodium carbonate

[WTDist]

Ok so I've looked into this in the past but i needed to learn cuts better. I figure I have learned cuts for neutral/vodka rather well now and can taste the difference between heads, hearts and tails rather well.

Im wondering about this acetic acid that esterifys in the presence of ethanol (and apparently is in hearts still).

So if bicarbonate neutralizes the acetic acid and bicarb binds with oils or something to leave some undesirables behind (cleaner smelling hearts also?) is it worth while testing this out for myself?
I always do good cuts and do feints runs so im really just after a cleaner hearts cut than i can already get on a slow low wines run for neutral but when it comes down to it i am really happy with my cuts as i dont get hang overs anymore but if i can make it better why not :think:

Just so the point is not lost, I've used bicarb only when the product trials are f'd and have nothing to lose...that's about where it belongs as a method imho.

So meaning a last resort to get what you can out of a wash?

Has anyone else here tried this method and compared it to not using bicarb or baking soda? If it shows promise then maybe i could try it :think:

Cheers
WTD