How Much Do The Angels Get

[MacStill]

I don't think anyone is saying that barrel aging is better Mac, More just discussing the ins and outs of it and the possibility of better ways to age on glass or in stainless.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that most of the unwanted volatiles are already removed via cuts, something the big boys don't seem to do as well as us ;-)

It's a great discussion, I wasn't inferring anything different to that fact.... more implying I've never really been happy with anything I have barrel aged :D

Please continue

[Brendan]

I'd say you're right about the big distilleries and their cuts Mac...I mean when I'm making my cuts, the hearts are so clean on the tongue straight away, that's why they're kept :D

But I find your comment on previous barrel ageing attempts interesting:

more implying I've never really been happy with anything I have barrel aged :D

:doh:

[crow]

hmm interesting , maybe this comes down to personal taste because I prefer my barrel aged stuff and it seems (so far) to gradually improve where as my stuff in jars tends to get as good as it ever will fast and then if I leave it too long will over oak
Just my perception and it seems that it differs to others

[SBB]

Thanks Mac, I didn't really want to see this thread stall just yet.
So lets look at this from a different angle, that of the big producers, blokes like Jack Daniels, Jim Beam and so forth.
They must spend many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a year on new charred barrels, on top of this cost they have to have huge ware houses and hundreds of thousands of barrels aging at any given time to keep up with world demand. These ware houses and the space they take up also cost a small fortune I imagine, firstly to build then to maintain. On top of that you also have the added cost of moving all those barrels around. I imagine people are also employed to take samples, watch for leaks and other problems. The things Ive mentioned are probably only a few of the associated costs of aging on oak in small barrels.
My question is, if a better product or equivalent product could be made by simply making better cuts and then using using huge stainless vats to age, wouldn't they be doing it, if not why not ???
The cost saving should be massive and after all these guys aint in the game for the love of it.
In short its got to be cheaper to make good cuts than go through all the rigmarole of aging in a gazillion small barrels
SBB

[Brendan]

Although they are VERY valid points SBB, I guess you also have to weigh in the other side which is the percentage yield from:

- the certain amount of grain used in each batch
- the time/labour put into each batch in terms of holding up the fermenter, still, charcoal filtering vat etc..
- the associated cost for keeping the whole place open and running during the time a particular batch is under progress...

Tighter cuts, means a lower percentage yield for the quantities associated with those points in the list...= less product out = less profit (regardless of the quality)...

If you get my drift...

But I do acknowledge that a shorter ageing time may then balance out some of these costs...it's a balancing act.

[SBB]

Yes i see what your saying Brendan, But its not like they are loosing any alcohol, More feints in each run would or should produce more hearts, so they really wouldn't be loosing out on the yield side.
Im not an economist or a industrial chemist, just a bloke with a still trying to look at it in simple terms with the goal of making the best stuff I can.

[Sam.]

I would say it has a lot to do with tradition, also I would say the laws state that it must be aged for the minimum period in an oak barrel before they call it whisky.

It may not be the best way to age, but it is certainly tried and proven :handgestures-thumbupleft:

The tricky part is when you are talking about the small barrels, under 50L.

I would say there is no way of over oaking in a big barrel used by the distilleries but as for the small ones, can it overoak? and how long would it take? :think:

[Brendan]

I would say it has a lot to do with tradition, also I would say the laws state that it must be aged for the minimum period in an oak barrel before they call it whisky.

It may not be the best way to age, but it is certainly tried and proven :handgestures-thumbupleft:

The tricky part is when you are talking about the small barrels, under 50L.

I would say there is no way of over oaking in a big barrel used by the distilleries but as for the small ones, can it overoak? and how long would it take? :think:

I've heard many in home distilling circles say that 'over-oaking' as such doesn't exist, and to just dilute with unoaked product if you feel it's necessary.

Zymurgy Bob claims that those tannins that are perceived as 'over-oaking' actually mellow out with more time giving rise to sweet and subtle woody characters that are very pleasant.

[BackyardBrewer]

One of the reasons we can produce such high quality booze is be fact we are so hands on. In big commercial distilleries you can't be hand-airing and mini batch oaking on dominoes and watching it minute by minute day by day.

Heaps easier for the big boys to do lazy cuts and mass produce and age for longer hoping the time forgives all.

When you look at how involved most brewers or distillers are at the backyard level is it any wonder our worst gear is better than 90% of commercial swill?

[SBB]

Zymurgy Bob claims that those tannins that are perceived as 'over-oaking' actually mellow out with more time giving rise to sweet and subtle woody characters that are very pleasant.

Ive seen the same thing said Brendan,its an interesting concept and could be worth looking into, what Ive read in other places suggests differently though.

I would say it has a lot to do with tradition, also I would say the laws state that it must be aged for the minimum period in an oak barrel before they call it whisky.

Not something I had considered Sam, but I think that might be very close to the heart of the matter. They are bound by law to doing it that way where as we are not.

As I said before I cant get a link up to this thing, here,s my attempt in case anyone wants a sqizz, some stuff in there that might interest you Sam, on aging times in small barrels as well as ABV loss.
Go to this link. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=32261
Scroll down to the post by Myles (second post in thread)
Click on Oak Barrel Aging PDF
Scroll down to Heading Angles Share and further down

[Brendan]

So if you aged inside where the air con/heater was on a lot, the humidity would be low and your ABV might increase? :think:

[SBB]

Or remain more stable at the very least.
Yes pretty hard to get your head around isnt it, Ive read that from other sources as well and believe it is correct.
It must have to do with water in the spirit evaporating in low humidity climates or conditions.
Dunno still thinking on that.

[SBB]

Ok so im bored today.
Ive just done some calculations on spirit loss when aging in oak barrels, and come up with one conclusion that cant be argued with.
That is that the Angels are blind rolling drunk 24/7.
Apparently most commercial Whisky is aged in 53 gallon kegs, this equals 200.627 Liters, I aint a mathematician either so I could get this wrong.
Provided the figures are right in what Ive been reading, this is what comes up.
If you had 1000 x 200L barrels, and Im sure the big producers have many many times that, this is what evaporates in 3 years alone.

year one each keg 200l 10% loss = 20L per barrel x 1000= 20,000,L of booze for the Angels.

year two, each keg now holds 180L, 10% loss= 18L per barrel , total loss is 18,000 L

year three each keg now holds roughly 162L, 10% loss= 16.2L per barrel total loss 16,200L.

Total loss in 3 years = 54,200L

BD i wouldnt lose to much sleep about that inch missing out of your keg,things could be a lot worse ;-)

[Sam.]

Yeah but you would still have 183800L of spirit left :laughing-rolling:

reckon that would almost see me out :D

[MacStill]

Yeah but you would still have 183800L of spirit left :laughing-rolling:

reckon that would almost see me out :D

Yeah almost, if I was going to live another 40 years I'd have to cut back my daily intake a little bit :laughing-rolling:

[DaveZ]

I got myself a few of these glass containers. They're only 2.8 litres, but should be ok for a start. I was planning on ditching the plastic off the lid and either cutting out a cork gasket, but not full circle, maybe 3/4 so it can still breathe a little, or just laying a cork sheet over the top and resting the lid on that. Try to get a little evaporation happening, but controlled. No idea if it'll work or not.

[SBB]

Dave Ive though about using jars like that , but trying to make a lid/bung out of oak to replicate the same sort of evaporation rates as a small keg would have, No idea if it would work or not.

and either cutting out a cork gasket, but not full circle, maybe 3/4 so it can still breathe a little, or just laying a cork sheet over the top and resting the lid on that.

Dunno , Cork should breath ok I think, what about a sheet of cork, then a piece of wood to hold it down, a few holes drilled in the wood to aid ventilation/ evaporation? Just be careful that the cork you gets not full of glue, lots is.

[DaveZ]

Yeah, ok, I'll keep that in mind. Must be some kind of material we can use that'll breath a little. Or maybe like you say, make a plug for the opening from oak, could be worth looking at.

[crow]

Here's the rub : I've drank 75yr old whiskey that was aged 30 yrs in a barrel and I have drank 45 odd yr old whiskey that spent at least 40 yrs in the barrel , Guess which one I liked best. consistently longer barrel aged spirit tastes better to me. It rings true for wine as well as far as I am concerned . Everyone has there own palate for sure but I prefer a thick smooth tasting whiskey, I have never barrel aged rum (yet) so I can't comment on that genre but Pussers is barrel aged and that stuff is shit hotalso made in a wooden still :whistle: but after saying that I have also have Mac's and it is also faultless :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[SBB]

Crow the only fault I could find with Macs rum, was the bottle he sent in in was too small :sad: