aging in barrels

[Pugdog1]

hi all

Im fairly new to the aging side of things and have a few questions as I want to age a barrel of rum and or whisky for his 18th (just born recently).

first question how big of a barrel will I need to prevent over oaking as this is obviously a long period of time it will sit?

2nd how often do they require topping up and how do I go about it?

3rd what % do I age at and will adding tails etc make huge impacts on flavour when aging for so long?

4th what kind of charring or toasting should I get if I buy a new barrel from a reputable supplier?

5th where can I buy new barrels? qld would be best as im located there and imaging freight is quite costly

6th I have noticed some sites that make barrels also sell second hand wine barrels are the whole barrels acceptable to use for aging or only to cut up for staves?

thanks ben

[SBB]

Roll Out The Barrel might be a good place to try if your in QLD, You would have to be careful oaking for that long in a small barrel as it would over oak fairly quickly I think, In short small barrels oak much more quickly than large barrels due to a greater surface area per Liter of spirit.

60-65 abv seems to be the average barrel strength most use.

[r.c.barstud]

#1, you wont be able to age it for 18 years, unless you are going to have a massive volume (vat), the surface are of the inside of the barrel will need to be in proportion to the volume of plonk, hence the smaller the volume the less time required to age. if you aged say 20 litres of rum for 18 years, it would taste like wood.
#2, ullage is the process where the smaller (alcohol) molecules escape through the staves and into the atmosphere (angels share), a normal practice for storage of larger sized and long term aging is to periodically inspect the contents, the reasons for inspections is, "seasoning", this is a process in the timber yard where the timber is stacked and re-stacked over a period of years for cellular transition of the tannins, the transition may vary from year to year due to climatic variations.
#3, adding is something into a barrel on-the-fly is done by pure luck and previous trials, its not advisable, it may upset the balances over longer periods
#4, toasting is completely up to the individual, a good cooper will be able to advise you, i am a master cooper by trade, i have never in all my time gone ahead and made a barrel to what "I" thought was correct, its totally up tou you, my advice would be a long and VERY slow, heat, the longer the time the fire is in the inside as long as its a slow fire, the deeper and heavier the toasting, it will have a charred surface, but it will also have a deeper penetration and a richer vanilla flavour.
#5, roll out the barrel in clontarf would be the best place to get a keg, noel is a good bloke and can help you with what you need.
#6 you could use an old wine barrel to age in, get a sulphur tab and burn it the barrel to sanitise it, fill barrel and walla, its advisabe to re-shave and re-fire old barrels to expose a "newer" surface and depth of timber. if you are going to use the staves, run over the outside of the stave with an electric planer first, the outside of a barrel gets exposed to some pretty funky shit..

[bt1]

Geez RC,

You really are driving a few points home for me on this post. WD!

years ago when I started was talking to another cooper over a drink or sixteen and he said a lot of stuff but a few relevant here to your post:

shave / sand the outside of staves it avoids the "spray" residues....never found out what sprays, suspect pest control.
Chip the used wine stain off from inner to expose new timber.
American for taste, French for lower tanins,sugars (generally)
plenty on timber types, kiln vs. natural ageing etc etc

Anywhos, I would have thought for a 18 year run a SS 50Lt keg was the go as it:
control over angels share, predictable end result.... ie you don't end up with a real low abv after that period of time
If stored in a carefully chosen location, would better pick up on seasonal/ nightly temp changes , ageing faster compared to timber
Allows direct control of timber to spirit ratio so low for a long termer
Suited to lower ( < 300Lt Hogshead barrel, which I figure was about what's needed for spirit to timber ratio) production

reckon that at some point past 8 - 10 years it would be tired and best bottled and stored...further ageing would detract
Just a few thoughts, like to hear what you think

cheers
bt1

[Pugdog1]

thanks rc that answers my questions nicely.

Geez RC,

You really are driving a few points home for me on this post. WD!

years ago when I started was talking to another cooper over a drink or sixteen and he said a lot of stuff but a few relevant here to your post:

shave / sand the outside of staves it avoids the "spray" residues....never found out what sprays, suspect pest control.
Chip the used wine stain off from inner to expose new timber.
American for taste, French for lower tanins,sugars (generally)
plenty on timber types, kiln vs. natural ageing etc etc

Anywhos, I would have thought for a 18 year run a SS 50Lt keg was the go as it:
control over angels share, predictable end result.... ie you don't end up with a real low abv after that period of time
If stored in a carefully chosen location, would better pick up on seasonal/ nightly temp changes , ageing faster compared to timber
Allows direct control of timber to spirit ratio so low for a long termer
Suited to lower ( < 300Lt Hogshead barrel, which I figure was about what's needed for spirit to timber ratio) production

reckon that at some point past 8 - 10 years it would be tired and best bottled and stored...further ageing would detract
Just a few thoughts, like to hear what you think

cheers
bt1

with your suggestion of ss keg how many staves would you recommend for say a 19L keg as ive thought about this option a few times and am in the process of buying some through wholesale accounts to use for aging. the staves I have at the moment are about 30cm long and 2-3cm wide. and if its still not feasible for the 18yrs then ill take your advice and bottle once I think flavours have developed nicely

[Pugdog1]

also how long would a 20L barrel take to age nicely (ball park figure as probably changes with charring etc?)?

I would still like to have a nice barrel aging somewhere I just have no idea when it comes to using barrels like how often can you reuse them? the type of maintance in between uses etc?
and I know a lot of the info is on the forum its just hard to search specifics if you don't know what to look for :?

[r.c.barstud]

I will post up a detailed explanation tonight when I get home

[Pugdog1]

cheers mate

[bt1]

Pug,

I'd rather wait for RC given his cooperage background...My oldest still only 4 years so have used what I wrote but would appreciate a pro's views first.

cheers
bt1

[scarecrow]

Here is some interesting info on barrel aging.

http://oakagingbarrels.com/small-barrels?mobile=1

IE if it takes 1 year to age whiskey in a 200 litre barrel, it will take 173 days in a 20 litre barrel.
Do the maths.

scarecrow

[Aussiedownunder01]

wouldn't it be easier to use ss barrels with dominoes in them

[r.c.barstud]

OK, you would be correct with your assumption, pesticides, rats, mice cockroaches that sort of thing have free range on the outside of a barrel, depending on the location of the barrel, they can get extremely nasty.
As for the angels share, well it starts a chain reaction of sorts in the maturation process, what happens is that the smaller molecules of the alcohol penetrate into the timber and eventually dissipate into the atmosphere and clear a path for the tannin and alcohol to mingle in the middle somewheres, the initial losses via ullage (angel share) is acceptable because its releasing the impurities (metho type stuff) leaving the more desirable contents behind to mature.
At various points in time the contents are inspected for progress and when deemed (by a pre-determined benchmark) the contents are de-canted and bottled. Depending on the barrels use, it can be rinsed, sanitized, and stored, this is a typical practice in wineries and breweries, as for distilleries and depending on what protocols that a distillery has to operate under governed by laws, a barrel must only be used once and it must be a new barrel.
Maturation is heavily influenced on local climatic conditions, for example, lets say a whiskey in Scotland is aged for 10 years, and a bourbon aged in Kentucky is a for 6 years, the reasons can be far and wide, however a basic fundamental factor takes precedence, the weather, its colder for longer in Scotland as compared to Kentucky, therefore the rates of ullage are faster in warmer climates.
There is no “set time” as such to over mature, I think that wild turkey?? Have a blend of 3 different years, 6,8 & 9 year maturations, (im not sure what the exact years are), basically its just depends on what that particular operator is trying to achieve and to give themselves a unique advantage over their competitors.
Regardless of the size of a maturing barrel, at some point in time it will be “over wooded” it simply cannot be stopped, if it’s a long term storage vessel, that’s a different scenario againg, the timber in a long term vessel is usually spent of its tannins and are usually vats and are older than the hills.
That’s maturation.
There are lots of considerations that fall into play with barrels, how long the timber seasoning is, which forestry it came from, the climatic impacts, even to the extent of if timber came from the same tree. So all in all, its going to come down to the individuals taste and preferences, essentially, we cant beat the clock, time is what it takes to mature, like I said earlier, its bottled after maturation and aged that way, so a stainless steel keg will still “over wood the contents”, so you are on the dead on the money there.

How long will it take? How long is a piece of string? There is no correct answer here, timber density, thicknes of staves, climate, etc etc all come into play.
As an example, I worked at Jack Daniels and I will tell you now them boys earn their keep. By memory, there are 74?? Barrel houses, 10 storeys high, 150 metrs long and about 50 meters wide, full to the ceiling with barrels, (that’s a LOT of piss), anyways, the barrel hoppers would move every single barrel from 1 floor to the next to give each barrel a stint in the warmer climate and work its way down, they had their own theories and practices on doing things, but that just gives you and idea of what goes into things.
From a home distillers point of view, once a barrel is spent of its tannins, keep it for a storage vessel, or throw it, the staves are usually too thin to warrant a sufficient reshave and refire, the same as a commercial distillery, they recycle them into other products, but they are also governd by law not to reuse a barrel. Its not advisable to stop using a barrel, timber is hyrdscopic and can allow for contamination, especiall wine barrels, so if you are going to use a wine barrel in any way, inspect the cavity between the staves for mould, the alcohol will make the mould go dormaqnt but it will taint our grog, than ya gonna be pissed right off, cause you wont know about it until its far too late, sometimes years later…..
As a master cooper, I don’t own a barrel, I use chips, a pump and an aerator, walla, you have a similar effect as a long term maturation, not as good, but it sure works for me.

Sorry for the loooong winded explanation…………
Give me a cooee if ya need more explanation etc more than happy to answer and help

[r.c.barstud]

wouldn't it be easier to use ss barrels with dominoes in them

yup, wineries do this, its called "planking" more cost effective, not as good, but its a LOT cheaper

[r.c.barstud]

thanks rc that answers my questions nicely.

Geez RC,

You really are driving a few points home for me on this post. WD!

years ago when I started was talking to another cooper over a drink or sixteen and he said a lot of stuff but a few relevant here to your post:

shave / sand the outside of staves it avoids the "spray" residues....never found out what sprays, suspect pest control.
Chip the used wine stain off from inner to expose new timber.
American for taste, French for lower tanins,sugars (generally)
plenty on timber types, kiln vs. natural ageing etc etc

Anywhos, I would have thought for a 18 year run a SS 50Lt keg was the go as it:
control over angels share, predictable end result.... ie you don't end up with a real low abv after that period of time
If stored in a carefully chosen location, would better pick up on seasonal/ nightly temp changes , ageing faster compared to timber
Allows direct control of timber to spirit ratio so low for a long termer
Suited to lower ( < 300Lt Hogshead barrel, which I figure was about what's needed for spirit to timber ratio) production

reckon that at some point past 8 - 10 years it would be tired and best bottled and stored...further ageing would detract
Just a few thoughts, like to hear what you think

cheers
bt1

with your suggestion of ss keg how many staves would you recommend for say a 19L keg as ive thought about this option a few times and am in the process of buying some through wholesale accounts to use for aging. the staves I have at the moment are about 30cm long and 2-3cm wide. and if its still not feasible for the 18yrs then ill take your advice and bottle once I think flavours have developed nicely

it will need to "breathe" traping the rum inside a sealed container isnt going to give you what youre after, age your grog in a barrel or staves or whatever, sample it from time to time, bottle and store.

[SBB]

Very nice post RC. Thanks for that :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[BackyardBrewer]

Great post. Gold star for you!!

[bt1]

Very impressed,

A true insite from a well experienced guru, genuine compliment here bloke... and not over stating it RC, more than over due.

Very much appreciated thanks for your extra notes and will need to re read a few times.

I'd ask the Admins to sticky this thread please...it's as close as we have to a true long term ageing write up and is well worthy of the sticky status.

RC my personal and many others express thanks for taking to the time to explain your craft. It will serve as a reference for many.

bt1

[kiwikeg]

Thanks RC excellent post.
May I trouble you with another question aside from mould what else should I avoid in a ex-wine barrel?
And would steam cleaning achieve the same results as a sulphur tab?
Thanks
Kk
Ps plus one on the sticky

[MacStill]

yup, wineries do this, its called "planking" more cost effective, not as good, but its a LOT cheaper

:D

[r.c.barstud]

Thanks RC excellent post.
May I trouble you with another question aside from mould what else should I avoid in a ex-wine barrel?
And would steam cleaning achieve the same results as a sulphur tab?
Thanks
Kk
Ps plus one on the sticky

ex winery barrels are usually very low in tannin, hence why the winery has tossed then out, not always though. i have seen near new barrels thrown out because somebody forgot to rinse out the barrel before it was stored. mould just grew every where and the barrel wasnt worth 2 nobs of goat shit. so, its best to pull a barrel apart, inspect the joints between each and every stave, re-shave a healthy 5mm, re-fire and then reuse ASAP. its kinda tricky to re-toast a barrel via fire, it can be done, but a lot of care is needed not to burn the chime and croze.
as for the steaming, you will need the biggest steam cleaner on the planet, good idea though, it simply wouldnt be fast enough to keep the heat evenly spread across the area of the barrel nor have enough penetration.