Aeration

Discuss everything about oaking and aging here

Aeration

Postby bt1 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:53 am

Hello all,

Wrote to RC re aeration as he'd mentioned it a couple of times in his process threads. Thanks champ! I'm rather impressed with this and here's some prelim results.
Finally found a small volume air pump 50lt/hour. Pet supplies don't seem to generally stock these real small pumps and you may need to look around a bit to get one or order on line. $16 plus 1.25 for .5m silcon hose, .85c for 5mm pvc hose joiner(silcon to 6mm 1/4" copper) -Bunnos (neither in spirit only copper 6mm)

In a 19lt SS post mix keg had 4 gens of a malted rye spirit @ 65% abv totalling 17lt approx. Last gen was aired and timbered 1 weeks prior...like real new
Connected the pump on Sunday pm using a 1/4" copper tube L shaped foot to depth of keg, 4 x 1.5mm air bleed holes.
Left keg lid barely open and ran pump until Thursday pm = 4 days.

Rye as I've mentioned a few times does take a fair bit of time to mature/turn to a softer less sharp balanced spirit. Tried it Thursday pm and I'm very surprised how much it has mellowed. It's not ready by any means but its close after only change being the aeration. No significant abv drop noted in fact given temps could be = to zip.

RC mentioned he runs up to 2 weeks I felt that may be from initial timbering, cuts just completed and would be a tad long for a semi aged spirit?
Doc also mentioned several weeks but suspect much higher volumes and again new spirit here?

So intending to run up to another week with the rye and keep checking it periodically but at this early stage rather happy with ageing method.
Intend to try also:
5lt rum spirit... just after cuts
5lt Rye just after cuts
1 x 50lt Irish which is now 6 months in the keg.

Will advise as it progresses but well worth considering.
bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Aeration

Postby Dominator » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:26 am

Thanks bt. So for us that are on a smaller scale, aeration of a 5L demi for say two weeks could assist in the ageing process? Is this kinda like distress ageing in the way that there is not substitute for time but it can be a way of getting a decent drink sooner, or is this a true part of the ageing process?
Dominator
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 am
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD
equipment: 2" Pot Still/Hybrid
4" Perf Plate Bubbler
50L Keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements

Re: Aeration

Postby bt1 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:00 pm

Howdy,

On the small scale won't have tested for a few weeks yet so can't comment but gut feel tells me two weeks for 5lt could be a bit long. Perhaps RC or Doc could chime in as they've been on this aeration method for some time I understand.

Guess it could be considered as one of several methods used for ageing. It's doing nothing more than oxidizing the spirit which would occur in a wood barrel in any case it's just the rate it does that is vastly different. It's not primarily a flavouring method, but may create a faster rate timber leaching given higher contact levels.

It has the timber contact but it wouldn't pull the same level of timbering in such a short time. I'd still further age in vented(4" oak bungs used) SS post mix kegs with timber strips after using this method I think to chase that timber balance.

If and yet to fully test it, say it can say take X month(s) out of a normal ageing process without dropping abv's to any great extent it's worth while imho.

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Aeration

Postby the Doctor » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:33 pm

bt don't think of the aeration as oxidising, as the oxidation potential of the spirit is not why I do it..it is to encourage a constant gentle current in the barrel or tank. it is this constant movement of the spirit which increases the extraction of the vanillins etc from the oak, any oxidation is a secondary consideration. Like ultrasonics which causes micro cavitation and vacumn cavitaion a much more aggresive form of forcing movement and contact. Aeration may be a bit slower but the outcome is the same. I do not think that it can be overdone. As it is so gentle. I use this method for up to 6 months before laying down the cask, then after ageing, for a month to freshen up and stir the cask. Our new whiskey which is being released later theis year is Penitants Run it recieved a total of 8 months on the bubbler as we call it and we tasted it last night when we hosted the Single Malt club for a tasting and tour, They seemed unanimous in agreeing it has made a really nice spirit. we got a lot of deposits and pre-sales so I guess the proof is in the pudding ...people do like the style.
Regards
Doc
the Doctor
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:14 pm
equipment: 6 plate bubble cap, grain brewery

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:40 pm

the Doctor wrote:bt don't think of the aeration as oxidising, as the oxidation potential of the spirit is not why I do it..it is to encourage a constant gentle current in the barrel or tank. it is this constant movement of the spirit which increases the extraction of the vanillins etc from the oak, any oxidation is a secondary consideration. Like ultrasonics which causes micro cavitation and vacumn cavitaion a much more aggresive form of forcing movement and contact. Aeration may be a bit slower but the outcome is the same. I do not think that it can be overdone. As it is so gentle. I use this method for up to 6 months before laying down the cask, then after ageing, for a month to freshen up and stir the cask. Our new whiskey which is being released later theis year is Penitants Run it recieved a total of 8 months on the bubbler as we call it and we tasted it last night when we hosted the Single Malt club for a tasting and tour, They seemed unanimous in agreeing it has made a really nice spirit. we got a lot of deposits and pre-sales so I guess the proof is in the pudding ...people do like the style.
Regards
Doc

well put doc :handgestures-thumbupleft: i was along the same lines with my response, but you beat me to it :-D either way, it works a treat especially if you "are in a hurry"
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Re: Aeration

Postby bt1 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:12 am

Thanks Doc & RC for replying much appreciated.

The comments on length of airing is a surprise to me and well noted...currently underway and will keep an eye and test to till I'm warm and fuzzy with the whole process.

I'm very surprised how much it has mellowed


Ryes typically have that real near heady bite which is present early but I know over time turns to a deeper mellow balanced warmth...main reason I make em really.

Just surprised and can't account for the lack of this bite after such a short timeframe for airing...like the volatiles are significantly reduced. Not knocking it... it's welcomed.
Hear what your saying about circulation and it's effect. I'd really like to do a side by side with a small pump, no air, but stuffed if I can find a spirit safe pump or method to test....more searching...

thanks
bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:20 am

Next time I set my system up, I will take pics and post them. In the meantime, I aerate on the return side of the pump, I got my aerator and pump from Kmart for a grand slam total of $27.
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Aeration

Postby BackyardBrewer » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:59 am

r.c.barstud wrote:Next time I set my system up, I will take pics and post them. In the meantime, I aerate on the return side of the pump, I got my aerator and pump from Kmart for a grand slam total of $27.


Aquarium pump? What brand did you get? I've got a stainless air stone on the way, just need a pump now. My plan is to suspend the air stone in a 15L demi with about 9L of 65% fig brandy. It was one of my first bubbler runs and take off was a little faster than it should have been (doh!).

But after nearly 6months on oak dominos, in a demi sealed only with a coffee filter it's getting noticably mellower, I'd like to accelerate this so it's drinkable before next year's figs!

m
BackyardBrewer
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: South Aussie
equipment: Solid Copper Love Machine (Plated column bubbler), hand made with love by a forum member
50L keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements
PURE distilling Reflux still + a tonne of homebrew gear amassed over 10 years of brewing.

Re: Aeration

Postby JayD » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:06 am

I've been following this thread and been spitballing ideas to improve this or not? what about if you caped your inlet so your pot ever so slightly presurises then depresurises as it being aireated? you could achieve this by placing a airlock in the cap...larger the airlock the more pressure...this might similate expansion and contraction of the spirit into your wood in the pot whilst letting it breath ??
JayD
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:46 pm
Location: Tasmania
equipment: copy cat designs

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:15 am

I will go into this a bit later on today, I'm doing a whiskey run at the moment
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Re: Aeration

Postby the Doctor » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:42 pm

r.c.barstud wrote:I will go into this a bit later on today, I'm doing a whiskey run at the moment

Can't go into it too much at the moment...bar is full of customers...but be aware the attachment photo is of a filter...not an air pump. The brand does not matter so much I tend to buy large pumps with a variable air volume knob so I can control the airflow... back to work for me. take care.
Doc
the Doctor
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:14 pm
equipment: 6 plate bubble cap, grain brewery

Re: Aeration

Postby Dominator » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:50 pm

JayD wrote:I've been following this thread and been spitballing ideas to improve this or not? what about if you caped your inlet so your pot ever so slightly presurises then depresurises as it being aireated? you could achieve this by placing a airlock in the cap...larger the airlock the more pressure...this might similate expansion and contraction of the spirit into your wood in the pot whilst letting it breath ??



That's not a bad idea jayd, although while you do get varying pressures you wont get a vacuum inside your vessel.
I guess there are plenty of different ways to do it and side by side tests would be the best way to test them. I can't wait until I am on my feet again and can start toying with this. :pray:
Dominator
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 am
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD
equipment: 2" Pot Still/Hybrid
4" Perf Plate Bubbler
50L Keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:53 pm

the Doctor wrote:
r.c.barstud wrote:I will go into this a bit later on today, I'm doing a whiskey run at the moment

Can't go into it too much at the moment...bar is full of customers...but be aware the attachment photo is of a filter...not an air pump. The brand does not matter so much I tend to buy large pumps with a variable air volume knob so I can control the airflow... back to work for me. take care.
Doc

im not full bottle with fish tank care or how this pump works on a fish tank, however, it comes with a carbon filter pillow lookin dealo and some other attachments. im right handed so i threw all the attachments over my left shoulder and all i was left with was the pump. you can buy "Y" pieces at a fish/pet shop to allow for the air flow, kinda like a merging lane on a street, (2 seperate lines merging into 1). the velocity of the circulating fluid is greater then that of air, so it will cause a venturi as such, and you wont get fluid going backwards and into you air pump.
the circulation will extract tannins a bit more effectively and the air will imitate ullage and also push the lighter volatiles upwards and out of the vessel.
i use this method a lot with rums, it speeds things up


another easier/ cheaper method is, use an inline transfer pump, (i will have to post a pic of this pump separately). have a suction nipple welded on the bottom of the storage vessel, transfer the spirit from the bottom of the vessel to the top and let it freefall, the freefall will add aerification as well as circulation. either method will need some sort of particulate filtration if using oak chips, the finer particles will get into the impeller and stop the pump altogether.

as doc mentioned, ultrasonics, this works a treat, the ultrasonic pulse will shatter the tannins out of the timber at a great rate of knots, but in reality its getting into some VERY complex physics and price tags, which is kinda counter productive for us.

there are many ways to do this system, some more elaborate than others, this is the way i do it, im almost positive doc will have a different way again, it will all boil down to cost, size/volumes, and how far you want to experiment.
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:56 pm

The pump for the second method, I use this pump for everything, great for still charging, i got it from BCF $50 i think its 500 LPH
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Re: Aeration

Postby Dominator » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:06 pm

What sort of pump is that r.c. is it a fuel pump? I like the idea of circulating from the bottom and letting it fall.

Edit: Got my answer. Thanks mate n
Dominator
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 am
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD
equipment: 2" Pot Still/Hybrid
4" Perf Plate Bubbler
50L Keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements

Re: Aeration

Postby Dominator » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:39 pm

BTW, for those interested this is the pump.http://www.bcf.com.au/online-store/prod ... 6289#Cross

r.c are you not worried about your spirit coming in contact with plastic? I agree, it would be good for transferring wash.
Dominator
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 am
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD
equipment: 2" Pot Still/Hybrid
4" Perf Plate Bubbler
50L Keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:42 pm

i forgot to mention, if you are going to use the method with merging the air into the spirit return line, use a "Y" piece and NOT a "T" piece. a "T" piece will allow spirit to flow in the wrong direction and into the air pump....not cool :handgestures-thumbdown:
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Re: Aeration

Postby r.c.barstud » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:10 pm

Dominator wrote:BTW, for those interested this is the pump.http://www.bcf.com.au/online-store/prod ... 6289#Cross

r.c are you not worried about your spirit coming in contact with plastic? I agree, it would be good for transferring wash.

nope, not really mate, both components arent really together long enough and i am circulating at 40% abv. if you were to do this method for an extended period of time at 40% or at a higher ABV i could get concerned.
over the years i have done some time equivalents, and the calculus to give a rough guide to timeframes for use is,,,, i times the number of days used by itself eg. 3 days used is the equivalent to 9 days in a barrel. 9 days use is the equivalent to 81 days in a barrel, 14 days use is the equivalent to 196 days. this is only a rough guide and there are heaps of variables and i mean HEAPS. i use 10 grams of oak chips per litre and the calculus is pretty accurate.
i have a mate who worked in a pathology lab and i had him test a few samples for me, so, to put it into perspective, bottled water has more toxins than my rum aged for 21 days, and 21 days is kinda on the extreme end of things, but in saying that, it was at 40% abv.
r.c.barstud
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: North QLD
equipment: Gas fired 50 litre pot still (common head) and 18 litre thumper.

Re: Aeration

Postby Dominator » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:40 pm

Thanks heaps r.c. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. I guess it looks like I am going to get myself a pump and aerator.
Dominator
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 am
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD
equipment: 2" Pot Still/Hybrid
4" Perf Plate Bubbler
50L Keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements

Re: Aeration

Postby greenguy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:23 pm

Me too pump and airator it is :handgestures-thumbupleft:
greenguy
 
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Location: Sheep Country
equipment: Red neck pot still on gas-sooon to be retired
FSD 4' SSG 2x2400 watt FSD elements soon to be

Next

Return to Oaking and Aging



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

x