Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

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Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby mickiboi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:49 pm

Howdy.

I can get a hold of a used French Oak barrel that has had Pinot in it for the last 12 months aging. I tasted the Pinot in its early stages in the barrel and the vanilla flavour from the oak was amazing and huge, there was also a hint of lemon and berries. The barrel cost $1700 new and I am buggered if I am going to let my friend throw it out as he only uses them once.

So what is the difference between American oak and French oak? If I age in French oak chips instead of American (I don't like Bourbon) what will I end up with? Is it going to taste like Bourbon? The vanilla drops of in the Pinot to the point where its barely noticeable but still there. What will happen to 65% ABV? Are those flavours going to stay?

Thanks

Mick
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby Brendan » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:13 pm

French oak has a tighter grain, and so will impart it's characteristics slower than american oak will.

As for the bourbon comment, you will only get a bourbon taste from a brand new charred american oak barrel, and that's with a corn whiskey distillate...the further away from those variables you get, the less like bourbon you will get.

It depends on the type of spirit you put in, but I would suggest using it for a 100% malt (barley) whisky :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby Andy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:14 pm

it depends on what you put into the barrel as to what you end up with.

you will get the flavours of the pinot and the oak coming through> some scotches are aged in the usual ex-bourbon barrels, and then transferred to port or sherry or wine casks for secondary aging and to enhance flavour profile.
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby mickiboi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:08 pm

Thanks for the replies.

The barrel is 22 gallons, I don't have that much time left in my life to fill it up. I was thinking of splitting the barrel up and using pieces of it. This way I could use the Pinot embedded wood in one lot and fresh oak in another. I read somewhere that you can use shavings to expose more of the wood to the alcohol to speed things up a bit.

So if I just used neutral spirit in plain wood would the original flavours still be there after say a year of ageing?

Thanks
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby Brendan » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:15 pm

If you worked on a consistent weekly ferment and run, you'd fill it in about 4-5 months I reckon :think:
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby mickiboi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:23 pm

Brendan wrote:If you worked on a consistent weekly ferment and run, you'd fill it in about 4-5 months I reckon :think:



That would mean I need 15 gallons @ 95% to make 22 gallons of spirit @ 65%. mmmmm I wonder...............
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby Brendan » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:33 pm

Shit, I just realised it was 22 gallons which is 83L...you can ignore my estimation...

1 ferment per week of 40L, strip run yielding 13L of 30% low wines...

Every 3 weeks doing a spirit run of 3x strips, so 39L of low wines usually yields me about 9L of ageable product...

So if you could get away 9L every 3 weeks, given some leeway, you'd need 10 spirit runs, so 30 weeks :o

So more like 8 months to fill it if you could allocate that time each week :shifty:
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby mickiboi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:49 pm

I need time to eat and drink in there as well. :))

Maybe everyone can send me a litre each and in 12 months I can send everyone's litre back?
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby the Doctor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:18 pm

Firstly French oak is my preference every time so the barrel sounds good, Pinot is fine, the tartrates left in the wood will dissolve and add a modicum of complexity. I am currently buying used ( one use) french oak Barriques ( 226 litters ) for $114 per barrel at the moment, or $185 per barrique if scrapped and re-fired. But the price is a bit seasonal and relates to demand and supply. A new first class barrique is $1650 at the current exchange rate. What your end product will taste like is determined by the base spirit as much as the oak, so I concur with those who suggest barley based whiskey if you are not wanting a bourben style.

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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby SBB » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:37 pm

mickiboi wrote:I read somewhere that you can use shavings to expose more of the wood to the alcohol to speed things up a bit.

The most common method is to cut a stave into 6 inch lengths. Then using a small axe, heavy knife or what ever else is at hand you split this piece into 1/2 inch sticks.
These are then toasted or charred to your own liking. That is if you dont want to keep the barrel whole. You will end up with some sticks that have the wine stain on them and some that don't, both types will give different flavors and color to the spirit.
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby MacStill » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:58 pm

the Doctor wrote:Firstly French oak is my preference every time so the barrel sounds good, Pinot is fine, the tartrates left in the wood will dissolve and add a modicum of complexity. I am currently buying used ( one use) french oak Barriques ( 226 litters ) for $114 per barrel at the moment, or $185 per barrique if scrapped and re-fired. But the price is a bit seasonal and relates to demand and supply. A new first class barrique is $1650 at the current exchange rate. What your end product will taste like is determined by the base spirit as much as the oak, so I concur with those who suggest barley based whiskey if you are not wanting a bourben style.

Doc


That's the beauty of this hobby Doc, even though we agree on most things our oak preferences are vastly opposed, I'm a big fan of heavily toasted American oak for my styles of drinks :D

But then I'm far from what you'd call a whisky maker, and with the knowledge you so willingly share I just know I'll be be better off in the long run.... My Single malt you advised me about is really starting to get some fantastic notes too it, even if it's only a few months old and tasted like arse in the beginning.

So glad you're here to share :D
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby wynnum1 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:54 am

How do you care for the Barrel after its empty.
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby Dominator » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:29 am

As people have said above, french oak is generally milder than american oak. My wife prefers my rum aged on FO and I prefer mine on AO, however I find the FO needs a bit longer to develop much flavour from the oak. I have a rum/whisky hybrid that I made about 8 months ago and aged on french oak sticks from a red wine barrel and the flavour is amazing. After about 6 months the aroma/body from the redwine started to make its way into the spirit, I just wish I made more.
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby the Doctor » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:56 am

wynnum1 wrote:How do you care for the Barrel after its empty.

you either re fill with product or you can store with water till re filling to maintain the swelling of the oak. We add a touch of proxitane to the water to sterilise...not that barrels last long empty here they mostly end up full again within weeks.
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby the Doctor » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:29 am

MacStill wrote:
the Doctor wrote:Firstly French oak is my preference every time so the barrel sounds good, Pinot is fine, the tartrates left in the wood will dissolve and add a modicum of complexity. I am currently buying used ( one use) french oak Barriques ( 226 litters ) for $114 per barrel at the moment, or $185 per barrique if scrapped and re-fired. But the price is a bit seasonal and relates to demand and supply. A new first class barrique is $1650 at the current exchange rate. What your end product will taste like is determined by the base spirit as much as the oak, so I concur with those who suggest barley based whiskey if you are not wanting a bourben style.

Doc


That's the beauty of this hobby Doc, even though we agree on most things our oak preferences are vastly opposed, I'm a big fan of heavily toasted American oak for my styles of drinks :D

But then I'm far from what you'd call a whisky maker, and with the knowledge you so willingly share I just know I'll be be better off in the long run.... My Single malt you advised me about is really starting to get some fantastic notes too it, even if it's only a few months old and tasted like arse in the beginning.

So glad you're here to share :D


Oak choice is such a personal thing ...and that is good, as it gives us the rich diversity we find in spirits. I am always amazed that you can go into a whiskey bar and sample many different whiskeys and no two are exactly the same. I used to like heavily toasted AO when I was making a more American whiskey style, but in those days i was drinking whiskey with mixers, the heavy toasted AO really helped the flavour of the whiskey to cut through the mixer... But with the advancing years and diabetes, I now drink all my whiskey neat or with a splash of water... with a sipping whiskey I like the subtlety of FO. The vanillin is there, I get nice caramel and I find that the smokiness is more from the peat than the char.I guess i have become a bit boring in my later years. but I am liking the spirits I am getting now. Also buying good french oak barrels which have only had one use is easier than sourcing AO, There are some very good barrels available every season. If you want them re - scraped and refired I can buy them for just $185.
Lately we have been buying "one use" white wine barrels which we do not even have cleaned...we tyhen put about 80 liters of madeira which we make from excess chardonnay we put this into the barrel and pressurise tyhe barrel with an air line threaded through a silicone barrel bung...The ain being to maintain a slightly higher atmospheric pressure within the barrel than without ( in much the same way that CCA treated timber is done...) we regularly rotate the barrel and leave for a couple of months. The pressure helps to achieve quick take up of the madeira by the oak as the wine does not just sink in but is drawn into the pores of the oak by the pressure differential and porosity of the timber.

Why Madiera ?.... well one of the advantages of being a wine maker is being able to make wines for no other purpose than to age the oak, Madeira imparts a jam / orange marmalade flavour which I love, it is really unique.

Why white wine barrels ?.... Whites tend to spend less time in the barrel than reds. So the once use barrels are often quite new, the oak still has many of the characteristics of a new barrel. If we want to add more "new oak" characteristics and punch up the vanillin we can use Nadalie planks or Suber Laffort dominoes as we micro oxygenate / aerate for the last 4 months before bottling.

There is only one thing more rewarding than the flavour that good oak brings to a fine whiskey...that is the flavour of good oak and PATIENCE bring.

Cheers
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel

Postby mickiboi » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:51 pm

Thanks for the replies everyone. You have a bit of knowledge in that head of yours Doc, thank you for sharing it with us. I will get the barrel and see what I can do with it.
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Re: Used Pinot French Oak Barrel and storage

Postby Wineleader » Sat May 27, 2017 11:36 pm

Wynnum1,
There are two common approaches to managing empty wine barrels (220 ltr) that I and my colleagues use.
For short term storage the barrels are thoroughly cleaned using a pressure washer (ideally a hot water one) then around 30 litres of clean water is added to the barrel. 50 grams of dissolved potassium metabisulfite (pm) is then added to the barrel and sealed with a bung. A newly emptied barrel will be acidic and the potassium metabisulfite will release sulphur sterilising the barrel though a teaspoon of tartaric acid will speed the release of sulphur. The barrel will need to be rotated on a regular basis to keep it sweet. The amount of potassium metabisulfite may increase if you intend to keep the barrel empty for longer than 6 months. A top up of water and pm will be required in summer... Carefully use the smell test. Do not store empty barrels outside in the elements.

For long term storage the second approach is to dry out the wine barrel.
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