French Oak

[Meatheadinc]

I mentioned to a friend of mine that I had never used French oak, said friend dropped by today with a gift :handgestures-thumbupleft: :happy-partydance:

french oak.jpg

he even gave me a bottle of rum aged on French oak

[MacStill]

nice pick up mate :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I've just taken my single malt off some used macwhisky american oak & put it on for a long term age on a mix 50/50 of french & american oak, only 12 months to go :))

[the Doctor]

After many years I have stopped buying American oak...I just much prefer the flavour profile of French oak.
Cheers
Doc

[bt1]

I find French oak lacks the early flavour that most American oak develops really well.

French is a poor choice for short term ageing relatively speaking from what I've tasted so far.

Longer term French seems more variable/spicey ....ok if you like that style but mines a straight as whisky with no funked up flavours.

bt1

[badbird]

Has anyone tried using staves from these? Last ones I looked at at Masters had French winery brands so I assume French oak :D

half barrel.jpg

ands

[MacStill]

just be careful as a lot of the garden centers have the barrels treated for termites etc etc. ;-)

[RefluxEd]

After many years I have stopped buying American oak...I just much prefer the flavour profile of French oak.
Cheers
Doc

I agree. With a brandy I made from pinot gris the American oak was just too full in your face with vanilla tones that were just overpowering. It does work well as a cooking brandy though. The French oak is much more subtle and goes well with a brandy. I haven't tried any good bourbons yet so when I do, that will decide wether the American oak gets thrown into the wood heater or not.

[robduca]

Can you use ex winery barrels?
I was buying and selling these for something to do a while ago. Still have a couple laying around but never thought to use them for spirits.
I assumed the wineries stopped using them for a reason and would be no good?

[Meatheadinc]

I just give some a light char and stuck it in some CF whisky next to some with American .. time will tell

Rob
if the still hold liquid then they will be fine
fill them with water to presoak and swell , see if they hold tight.
otherwise cut the stave to suit a glass jar
I believe that lots of rum and bourbon producer use used wine barrels
I have even port soaked my American oak for use in rum

[badbird]

just be careful as a lot of the garden centers have the barrels treated for termites etc etc. ;-)

That has always put me off in the past, might have a talk to them and see if they know the history of them but i'mm not hopeful.

[robduca]

just be careful as a lot of the garden centers have the barrels treated for termites etc etc. ;-)

That has always put me off in the past, might have a talk to them and see if they know the history of them but i'mm not hopeful.

When I was cutting in half and selling them, I used to give them a coat of 50/50 linseed oil and mineral turps. That's the common outer coating used. Not sure if they would treat the inside at all.

So if using a barrel that has held red wine, do you shave off the wood that come in contact with the wine?
I have 3 whole barrels that were only used once for wine.

[bayshine]

I just give some a light char and stuck it in some CF whisky next to some with American .. time will tell

Rob
if the still hold liquid then they will be fine
fill them with water to presoak and swell , see if they hold tight.
otherwise cut the stave to suit a glass jar
I believe that lots of rum and bourbon producer use used wine barrels
I have even port soaked my American oak for use in rum

I think bourbon is barrelled in charred new American oak casks as this is its definition by law in the us :think:

[robduca]

Well looks like I won't be needing to buy oak for a very long time. :D
The things you learn on this forum is amazing.

[Triangle]

I believe that lots of rum and bourbon producer use used wine barrels
I have even port soaked my American oak for use in rum

I reckon that sounds perfect!

Some brandy producers specifically use ex sherry barrels for brandy, especially in Spain/Europe. Not quite a port but should help to impart some complexity.

[Triangle]

So if using a barrel that has held red wine, do you shave off the wood that come in contact with the wine?
I have 3 whole barrels that were only used once for wine.

Winery standard is to wash with cold water OR 2% hot sodium carbonate and wash out with water. The idea of acid or alki wash is to remove wine deposits from the inside though the deposits are sometimes helpful to keep a cracked barrel sealed. I would use this method if barrels have not been stored open and in a cool area as it will steralise the barrel.

[bt1]

When I was cutting in half and selling them, I used to give them a coat of 50/50 linseed oil and mineral turps. That's the common outer coating used.

I use stave off cuts from a place called Tubbies in Adelaide Hills. Cheap, completely clean timber, pre barrel as mainly off cuts.
The owner was the second bloke to tell me for oaking as we use it plane a few mms off the wine stain(already consumed by the wine) and the outside due to winery treatments.

Never had a problem with good advice.

bt1

[the Doctor]

Why anyone would you want to clean off the tartrates and wine residue from a barrel... The reason for using second hand barrels is to benefit from that residue...we use shiraz tartrates to colour our whiskey and wolfblass chardonnay barrels for ageing ...I insist that the barrels be sulfured but not cleaned before use. There is so much anecdotal B.S. surrounding oaking... but the basics are :

#1 : End grain extracts coarsely, so try to keep the ratio of end grain timber surface to long grain approx 10% to 90% long grain... so no chips...ex barrel oak chips are awful as are wood shavings or wood dust... the smallest formfactor you should use is a domino ( Suber - Lafort ) Nadalie 4 ft planks are even better.

#2 : American oak extracts faster than French... true, but it is a matter of personal choice... quality has it's price...in this case time.

#3 : good oak bought from a cooper is cheap...yeah you heard it right !...compared to everything else we distillers spend money on..oak is probably the greatest bang for buck...lets face it. without oak what are you going to do...use cordials from home brew shops...theres a joke. Oak is largely re- usable and can be re-generated many times.

Please do not buy barrels from garden centres as they may have been used for poisons storage after wine use, for all you know... I have seen barrels used for glyphosate storage... IF you are distilling at home you are saving a fortune...re - invest some of that in your assured health and quality of product. Buy quality oak from reputable coopers.

Cheers
Doc

[bt1]

we use shiraz tartrates to colour our whiskey and wolfblass chardonnay barrels for ageing

geez Doc we've clearly got different taste prefs for whiskey. Heavy red wine staining has never appealed to me taste wise. See the value in ageing barrel change as mentioned, but I look at the US where the consistent and mandated practice is new oak. Seems to work.

bt1

[the Doctor]

fine if you want corn liquor... you'all just add caramel too.... One of the whiskeys we colour with shiraz tartrates just was included by Sven Alemenning to the Eau de Vie top 40 whiskeys of the world book, and has it's own cabinet in their whiskey bars...so it is not just my preference...As for American whiskey...if that is your preference fine. I am a Celtic style whiskey maker and avoid the American style while it is easy to make and quick, I will give you that. It just does not appeal to me.
Cheers
Doc

[Triangle]

G'day Doc, congratulations.

On the French oak versus time factor, using surface area to volume ratio can help the impatient hobby distiller.

Just out of interest, what are you using? Hogsheads?