evaporative condenser

[arjovenzia]

Hi Ya'll

First post, haven't joined a forum for a while, seem like a decent mob. Tinkerin, tweakin, makin beautiful and tasty things. Sure I'll fit right in. Bin building 'cool things' since I figured what way a screwdriver goes round, n have boats, watercooled pc's, valve amps, aquaponics n countless more under my belt. A still seems like a great project, and my wallet agrees.

Where my brain is really humming is the condenser. In our part of the world, tipping water down the sink is nigh on sinful, which is 90% of the solutions. Even an Icebucket seems wasteful, although the garden could get it. I'm very impressed with my evaporative CPU coolers, they'll hold a few hundred watts at a few degrees below ambient for a few L of water a day. I'm certain they'll take alot more heat, just burn it up as vapour.

I haven't seen this done on a still, closest being a photo with a piece of cloth hung over the end of the lyne arm on some unknown rural still, which, if damp, might have some effect. I propose to use a 'bong' cooler (named for appearences only, ask google). Built from storm water pvc, it has 4 main parts. A modified shower head pours droplets/streams of water down a length of PVC (1ft-1m) into a resivior, providing ballast and holding a submersible pump, feeding your cooling loop, which empties into the showerhead. Just before the resivior, is a Y fitting. The straight parts join the tower and Res, the offset port has a small fan fitted, facing down but blowing up the tower. This gives crossflow to the large surface area of the water stream. Water down, air up, heat out the top. The water out the pump can only be described as chilled. It also seems the more heat that goes in, the more chilled it gets. Good feedback. I've not hit a wall yet, but I've also not fed one kW's of heat.

I'm hoping actively cooling the condenser will allow for a much smaller unit. Actually what the condenser will be is still undecided. A cross flow (leideman) seems terribly inefficient, forming a very laminar flow, ending up very long. A worm is physically huge. I'm thinking some kind of hybrid, but undecided if it will be in the resivior or cooling path, maybe even the tower itself. It all comes down to efficiency vs complexity.

I am interested to hear thoughts and opinions. How much difference is there between cold/cool/room/warm water, and the taste of the final product? Has this been tried, but under a name I haven't found yet? Is there much interest in a more water efficient still?

[blond.chap]

Hi mate and welcome,

All sounds like interesting ideas, most of us just get a big tank 200-1000L, and a recirculation pump. You can keep the water for a year or so and it'll stay cool if you don't rum the still more than once a day. I figure you only need a active heat rejection if you don't have space for a largish tank.

[arjovenzia]

Exactly, keeping a huge barrel will not only be awkward for me, but does seem awful wasteful. Why use 100 L when you can make 10 do the job? Already got plumbing everywhere n a pump working, make it work smart. My pot is only little, so a few sucsessive runs is almost a cirtianty. Dump a jug of water into ur evap, n ur ready to run again.

The other factor is the tank will sit at say 'average monthly temp', a warm day or crisp night, your temp'll be 20-25 degrees. On a clear, dry, cold night, I've run temps down to 6 degrees. What factor does condenser temp play? Is it a 'as long as it condenses, don't matter' thing or does shock chilling do good (or bad) things?

Of course, Murphy dictates as soon as you post, you find a relevant thread:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3257&p=49885

Same concept, just less elegant, still plenty ingenious. If the stills not running, that + a fan gives a nice cool shed ;-) keen to hear results

[blond.chap]

Exactly, keeping a huge barrel will not only be awkward for me, but does seem awful wasteful.

Depends on your situation I guess, my water goes round and round in a circle and virtually none is wasted. For the size thing, I just keep a 44gallon barrel near my still, it warms up a bit by the end of the run but I haven't had any problems yet. Just depends on what's simpler, for me a cooling system is more awkward that the drum

Why use 100 L when you can make 10 do the job? Already got plumbing everywhere n a pump working, make it work smart. My pot is only little, so a few sucsessive runs is almost a cirtianty. Dump a jug of water into ur evap, n ur ready to run again.

The other factor is the tank will sit at say 'average monthly temp', a warm day or crisp night, your temp'll be 20-25 degrees. On a clear, dry, cold night, I've run temps down to 6 degrees. What factor does condenser temp play? Is it a 'as long as it condenses, don't matter' thing or does shock chilling do good (or bad) things?
For a pot still the temperature doesn't matter as long as it's low enough to condense (and not so low that it's frozen), for a coolant controlled reflux still, you want the coolant to be at as consistent a temperature as possible so that it's simpler to control. It's also preferable to have it a bit warmer, so that small changes in flow rate don't change the cooling provided by a large margin (more controllable)

Of course, Murphy dictates as soon as you post, you find a relevant thread:
http://aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic ... 57&p=49885
Yep, that's a good one. A few guys run their ex-coolant through an old car radiator with a fan blowing through it.

Same concept, just less elegant, still plenty ingenious. If the stills not running, that + a fan gives a nice cool shed ;-) keen to hear results

If you've got the time, it's great fun to experiment with new ideas, so go nuts and make sure you post lots of pictures.

[bt1]

Howdy,

I wouldn't have considered re using stored water via a pump as wasteful. I been using the same for over a year with rain top ups that would otherwise go no where.

I'm a bit of a fan (no pun intended) of ensuring the end product is on or about the calibration temp of the alco meter...it's just one thing less you need to re calc as your run progresses and no one really can be bothered... So good condenser with good flow control is essential imho especially in winter when your trying to keep it warm c/f enviro temps.

bt1

[arjovenzia]

Stored water, no, I'd agree, isn't wasteful, if you can store n replenish it.

But there are many examples of 'down the drain' condensers, probably not so much on this antipode. the geek in me still sees a fat tank as ... crude, inefficient. Nothing at all wrong with it, but there's a strong feeling of 'I can do better than that'. Hence the coating of PVC, steel and copper frass over the driveway ;-)

Also, not having an old 44 lying about, but having 2 m of 90mm storm water pipe training weeds in the yard, well... use what uve got. n hardcore thermodynamics is cool,IMHO. Its what got me interested in distilling in the first place. Smack a pile of junk over the head with some science, n make something cool happen.

Snafled some tools from work, n Anzac day tomorrow. I'll at least get the tower running, hopefully some cleaning/training runs to. Much excite.

N yes, there'll be pics ;-)

[googe]

Looking forward to your contraption. May I ask where in aus you are?. Just that you mentioned your water supply is very sacred where you are?. Good luck.

[bt1]

Howdy,

Just a final comment for me,

all the condensers we commonly use (Jackson cross flow could be the odd one out here0 have one thing in common. They have a progression in the cooling zone. Take a leibig at input its coolant temp but progressively warms as it collapses vapour back to liquid. This is intended as it prevent that reverberation/shock wave that induces a huffing effect.
Generally hot vapour flow in takes care of this requirement but throw it in here for consideration.

bt1

[arjovenzia]

Well, the construction/development is going on in perth, but want to run it out in our shack in the sticks. as a weekender, the rainwater tanks arnt huge. figure it'll be better for the brewing, but not so for the cooling. or I might just get lazy and run it at home. either way, the design ethos and challange is more the motivator than the practical problem.

anyway, first I needed the still to work. trial #1 using a worm I wasnt happy with. wasnt as pretty a coil as I would like, couldnt get it tight enough to fit inside the 90mm, so it was in a bucket, n getting it stable and supported was looking like an arseabout. so I bit the bullet and knocked up a leibig. In hindsight, probably a better call, Isolate the heat from the product, so I can treat them seperatly. So, thats all working now.

Ran through a couple of cleaning runs, using a ~25L bucket as a thermal sink. she got pretty hot. after the first rinse it happily defrosted my dinner. so, I'll definatly want to active cool it. Now, I noticed the first few cuts didnt huff at all, as the water warmed, it got very consistient, but then as it got 'hot', it was huffing quite randomly.

I dont really follow you bt1, could you elaborate on what causes the phenomon? Pics tomorrow, avoiding alligator attacks and meteor showers

[arjovenzia]

A ah, it was a tsunami and alien invasion this week (rental inspection and pregnancy scare).

Anyways, finally got some proper runs done an some photos took. However, picasa has lost the 'image link button'. If you log in n search it'll probly be there somewhere, but I know i wouldnt. Images go in threads. Come on google, your not a Facebook, ur better than that. Hunt if your keen, I'll find a better image host.

But she's a go. Not quite your subambient, but we are dealing with thousands of watts here, not a few hundred. Still, it stabilised out, plenty cool, and lost less water in 3 hrs than it did over 48 in the sun. I call that a result. I also like having a bong running, just giving free uberbooze, rather than free uberclocks. I do love being able to turn junque around the house into 'better than money can buy' products.

Its still not ready to run my brews I don't think, ran el cheepo cask wine to learn n clean. Fascinating stuff. So much evil in the for shots, no wonder it gives you death hangovers. But the core gave great, clean ethanol, heads cut into 'saltana' and 'rottern grape' flavors. Really cool how the thing 'tells' you its stages, by watching flow rate and viscosity. This is fun chemistry! I see how this can be addictive ;-).

Mixed, made as good a grappa as traded from an old eye talyan bloke (2 goats for a side of butched goat, stacks of boss ding sausage n a few bottles of grappa, ain't barter great?). The core dissapered into any mixer, but you have to be very careful on dosage, way more incoohol there than you'd expect. So I got very drunk :-D. But bounced to work with narry a sign of hangover. Fuxx yeh!

Now, I know you old hats know this, but forgive a newb for his excitement egh?

The only bugbear being a distinct copper taste... n a bizzare sweet taste it gives cigarettes. So I'm running a full 4l of vinegar ATM, try n clean it out.

Its clear n crisp tonight, somewhere between the 3rd n 4th. If I was overclocking, now would be a good time to push clocks n benchmark. The bong is still strutting its stuff, shooting out plumes of vapor, jets. Damn camera can't see it tho. Mad condensation on the tin roof. Warm hose is good enough to shower under, but the Res stays cool. Working a treat, n vinegar/water takes far more heat than ethanol, I'm confident this apparatus will handle anydamnthing I throw at it. Once this is run n rinsed, I'll let it do my weetbix whisky wort.

This is ghetto-elite at its finest.

Protips always welcome.

Gotta get these pics up

[arjovenzia]

Triplepost

But, PS:
The cycled vinegar put back in the bottle has a mild green tinge. Clensed copper oxide or whut?!! This shits over tee chem for interest

[Sam.]

A ah, it was a tsunami and alien invasion this week (rental inspection and pregnancy scare).

How does the tsunami relate to the inspection :think:

(2 goats for a side of butched goat, stacks of boss ding sausage n a few bottles of grappa, ain't barter great?).

Your getting fucked over on that deal :laughing-rolling:

[BareKnuckles]

What about something like this? Works fabulously...
Pay no attention to the funny looking contraption in the foreground. The cooling tower behind it...

20130417_115416.jpg

-BK