Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Parrots beaks, valves, condensers, and all other hardware for stilling.

Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby WalterWhite » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:16 am

Ok so since getting my shiny new FSD Neutraliser I have highlighted a couple of problems elsewhere in my setup.
I am currently using 2x 220L drums for cooling water with a 350w submersible water pump.
The problem I am having is insufficient flow to my condensors. The still is set up right next to the drums so no issue with distance but the condensors must create pressure that equates to head and slows the flow. I would guesstimate it being around 3L a minute but that is obviously split between my condensors.
I have no valve to my PC so this is used as a bypass and then I have a valve on my RC to control flow.
The PC seems to struggle to cool the distillate. On a stripping run I am restricted to about 5 or 6 litres an hour as anything more than that and the PC struggles.
Is there something I am missing or do I just need to get a better pump?
The 350w has 5m head
The 750w has 8m head
Will that make enough difference or shall I go for something like this instead
https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/130940023428
Obviously it's quite a bit more expensive but has 90m head!!
All thoughts, ideas and advice welcome and appreciated.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby WTDist » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:31 am

dont know about pumps but wondering about the pumps flow rate and head. does that mean it can have a flow rate of 4980 on level ground and as it goes lower it looses flow until it has no flow at 90m depth due to mass of water and power?
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby P3T3rPan » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:06 pm

head is how high it can pump
flow is how much per minute/hour it can pump
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby rumsponge » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:51 pm

Hi BennyHiggo,
look at the 550W Ozito as an alternative (8.5m heads advertised). what sort of hoses do you run from the pump to the PC/RC (diameter? )? May be worth getting a 3/4" hose instead of the 1/2" garden hose to minimize restrictions.
I am thinking about a similar setup, but with an AC cooler after the RC/PC. More details here:

http://www.aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9231

I cant provide details on the full setup, as I havent received my Neutralizer. If you are in the SE QLD area, I am happy to provide my pump for testing.]
cheers, rs
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby ako1978 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:20 pm

Benny I run this fella $139 inc postage on eBay. I use the PC as a bypass, same as you, so the pressure switch on the pump will never kick in, hooked up to a small tank, cheap, portable as I put it away when not using

AKO
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby GroggyAl » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:38 pm

P3T3rPan wrote:head is how high it can pump
flow is how much per minute/hour it can pump


:text-+1:
Correct but unfortunately you cannot have both. If you use all the pumps head capacity due to lifting the water to the top of a Neutraliser or if you have a lot of resistance in the piping then you will have no flow.
The 350 Ozito has only 5m of head so if the neutraliser RC is 2m above pump water level then you have only 3m of head left to push the water through all the hoses and fittings.
The trick is to reduce restrictions in the lines as much as possible.
Benny, what hoses are you using? Those braided lines look pretty but the internal bore is quite small. Are you using a large bore pipe coming up out of the tank from your pump?
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby rumsponge » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:26 pm

this maybe a stupid idea, but here goes.
I aussume your pump is sitting at the bottom of your reservoirs. If you lift it up one meter and have it partially submerged under the water surface, you should be able to gain 1 meter worth of heads and better flow?
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby GroggyAl » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:51 pm

rumsponge wrote:this maybe a stupid idea, but here goes.
I aussume your pump is sitting at the bottom of your reservoirs. If you lift it up one meter and have it partially submerged under the water surface, you should be able to gain 1 meter worth of heads and better flow?


Not a stupid idea at all but you have to raise the water level in the tank - not the pump. The pump head is measured from the water level in the tank feeding it - not from the pump elevation itself. Lifting the pump halfway up the tank won't gain you anything. Raising the tank off the ground 1 metre will help you because the surface level of the water in the tank has gone up. Another way around it is if the tank was sealed you could put a stand pipe on it to increase the static head. There is a limit to how high you go because the return has to go back into the top of the tank. Ideally a tank water level close to the height you want to pump to (eg. the height of the RC) would mean that all of the pump head (pressure) is available to overcome the line loses (restrictions) in the piping system.

Hope i have explained clearly enough. RS, I can see you mounting your tank/AC unit halfway up the wall now 8-}
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby wiifm » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:14 am

How did you guesstimate the water flow? 3L / minute seems very low. What hoses are you using? It would be terrible to buy another pump to find out it is something else in your system causing your problem.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby rumsponge » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:48 am

Thanks groggy, I had a suspicion that this might be the case.
Benny, I would be really interested in the exact flow rates you are getting with your neutralizers and this may be helpful for other users down the track.
If you have a chance, try measuring the flow (rather than guestimating). Its easy to do with a graduated bucket and timer.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby Whiskyaugogo » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:18 am

Through necessity, I had to learn a lot about different pumps while planning our Distillery. From centrifugal to diaphragm to multistage etc, all have different applications and performance. One thing I learnt very early on was the LPM Head Rate. Typically most pumps for sale on Ebay do not show a performance curve which is critical to show exactly how they transfer a "suggested" 100 LPM. Nearly always with these the actual LPM is dependant on the aligning of the planets so the actual LPM is no where near the "stated" LPM. :handgestures-thumbdown:

There are 2 types of pumps I use;

1. Multistage
2. Centrifugal

I use the multistage for the recirculating cooling on the stills because it is best in sending volume over distance quickly. The centrifugal is used to pump mash to the fermenters and then waste into the drain and it will move 2000L in around 4 minutes. If I used the centrifugal on the recirculating water it would not perform as well as the multistage and the multistage would quite literally shit itself once mash hit it.

Lastly, the multistage pumps start at around $150 so they are expensive compared with a submersible or a jet pump. Many home distillers have fantastic setups without having to look at the more expensive pumping solutions so please don't take this as a "must have" more of an understanding of the types of pumps.

This is a pdf of the head rates and typical drop offs due to distance or power/rpm. Great read if your wanting to understand all about pumps :handgestures-thumbupleft:

http://www.pumpstoreusa.com/assets/stor ... manual.pdf
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby WalterWhite » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:30 am

Wow ... Some awesome guys thank you!
I am away from home for a few days at the moment but when I get back I will be doing a run and I will measure the exact flow rates ... I may be getting more than I guessed but the bottom line is I still seem to need more for the condensors to work properly.
I'll be back with measurements in a couple of days
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby GroggyAl » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:46 am

I wouldn't go out and buy a big pump just to overcome the line losses in your system just yet. I see it all the time, people put in a 2 HP (1500 watt) pump when they can normally engineer a solution around it. A 350 w pump will draw over 1 amp. A 750w pump over 2 amps. 4 amps for a 1500w pump. The extra power it draws may be what's trips your circuit breaker if the pump is on the same circuit as your heating element.

Let's look at the line losses. The RC and PC of the Neutraliser won't have much restriction in them at all. Unfortunately we all tend to love the look of those sexy SS braided hoses. They look much better than the boring old garden hose. But look at the difference in size. It has a much smaller ID.

image.jpg

Sometimes we have to live with a few restrictions and they are not an issue if only for a short distance but these braided hoses are long and can have short radius bends. It all adds up to significant pressure drop.
Needle valves when used to control the flow have a very small orifice. I use the cheap Bunnings cistern valves because the can be used to finely control flow yet the orifice size is large compared to an expensive needle valve. Cistern valves can only be installed one way though because they will act as a check valve if the flow is reversed.
Some Solenoid valves (for PID controlled stills) also have a large restrictions unless pilot operated.

When it comes to piping - BIGGER is better (ask any woman). :-D If you run big bore piping (say 40mm PVC) directly from the pump outlet then only reduce to the smaller bore garden hose once you get near your still you can minimise line losses. Length is also important but in this case the women are WRONg. Shorter is better. We are all guilty of it. We buy a new 15 m long garden hose and cut it in half so we have 2 x 7.5m lengths yet we may only need the hoses 4 m long. All that extra length increases the pump head requirements.
Remember - Short and thick does the trick.

I would start by re confirming flow rates with your current set up. Check all fittings used to ensure they don't have any check valves or other restrictions in them and then report back with line sizes, lengths and elevations. May be we can avoid the cost of a new pump for you.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby RuddyCrazy » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:40 pm

All I ever used for distilling is a 12 volt flojet pump and I measured the good ol' way 17 litres a minute with it running at 9 volts. Now I have moved my gear upto my big shed I can measure the power required. I setup up a 1/2hp 240 volt pump and saw a 43 amp current drain out of the batterybank :scared-eek: . So setup the flojet which actually gave more flow than the 1/2 hp pump and the current draw was 3-4 amps out of the batteries. Ok sure the battery bank is 730AH but how long to drain that said battery using a 240 volt pump opposed to a 12 volt pump. No brainer :laughing-rolling: and as far as cooling the yeild has never been better on my 2" pot still.

I won't be doing another run until my 4" bubbler is finished and I'll bet that 12 volt pump will do a great job.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby GroggyAl » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:47 pm

Bryan1 wrote:All I ever used for distilling is a 12 volt flojet pump and I measured the good ol' way 17 litres a minute with it running at 9 volts. Now I have moved my gear upto my big shed I can measure the power required. I setup up a 1/2hp 240 volt pump and saw a 43 amp current drain out of the batterybank :scared-eek: . So setup the flojet which actually gave more flow than the 1/2 hp pump and the current draw was 3-4 amps out of the batteries. Ok sure the battery bank is 730AH but how long to drain that said battery using a 240 volt pump opposed to a 12 volt pump. No brainer :laughing-rolling: and as far as cooling the yeild has never been better on my 2" pot still.

I won't be doing another run until my 4" bubbler is finished and I'll bet that 12 volt pump will do a great job.


Man of my own heart. The 240v pumps are not very power efficient. High flow and low head is crap.
I have a couple of old Jabsco Parmax 4 pumps from the boat. 15LPM and 60 PSI positive displacement pump. They were used for deck wash and the cutout switches fail after about 12 months use. The pump itself still work fine just no longer automatic. Positive displacement overcomes all the issues associated with a centrifugal pump. Unfortunately they are not continuous rated but I believe they would last ok with a good cooling airflow and low pressure use.
I contemplated running two set up in parallel - one duty- one standby installed in behind the cooling fan of my radiator. It's just a bit more dicking around with power supply and interfacing with control system.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby RuddyCrazy » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:16 am

One thing I didn't mention is how i power that 12 volt flojet pump, as the batterybank in my shed is 24 volts putting a 12 volt pump will fry the pump in no time. So I just grabbed a 12 volt 5 amp dual output transformer (old arlec power supply), put a 35 amp bridge recifier in along with a 400 volt 1500uf cap to smooth the output. Looking with the scope it is a nice smooth DC line and when the power is turned off the cap discharges in about 30 seconds. I do have a 24 volt fan sitting ontop of the tranny and running it for hours is no problem. The best part it doesn't drain the shed bank.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby WTDist » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:21 pm

Is it the PC struggling or the RC? i saw from your image below you dont have a gate valve on your PC. If your RC needs more than its getting you can shut off/limit a bit of the PC water with a gate valve so more water is redirected through the RC. With it wide open it will take more than it is needed. not sure if this is a problem but i think it would help you hit full reflux better if the PC had a gate valve like the RC to limit the unneeded flow to the PC.

basically if your in full reflux you barely need anywater going in the PC. if it is then this is flow rate your RC is loosing as half will go through the product condenser to cool nothing but take flow rate
Image

I would have 2 gate or a ball valves like this one to limit PC flow when needed to redirect it through RC
Image

Not sure if this helps but maybe

My shotgun only needs a dribble to work. Would it help if you limited the flow rate in the PC so more could go in the RC?

just did a estimate of cost on bunnings also. $97.28 for a setup like this with 2 gate valves :scared-eek:
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby GroggyAl » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:09 pm

WTDist,
I thought the same thing but Benny refered to the PC a couple of times and said the problem with the PC struggling was during the stripping run. I assume he had the RC valve closed at this time so the PC should have been getting all the flow.
If the flow rates are low then I thought the RC would also be struggling to achieve full reflux. Especially with no valve on the PC, the water would have taken the path of least resistance meaning even less flow for the RC.
I agree a valve on the PC circuit as well would be good to ensure the RC gets its fair share of water.
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Re: Poor pump = Poor condensors!

Postby CyBaThUg » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:14 pm

Interesting read
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