Bread Improver

[grumpthehermit]

G'day,

I've seen a few posts about people playing with bread improver to convert starches to sugars in unmalted grain.

I want to make a wash this way so I am only using supermarket ingredients once again, and not trying to malt grain or buying malted grain.

I find from my adventures this morning I have been successful to some degree, unsure how successful as yet.

:handgestures-thumbupleft:

SO .. This is where I am at, tell me what you think.

:handgestures-thumbupleft:

I large stockpot filled up to about 18L
2 bags of 475g cracked wheat added in and brought to the boil stirring every few minutes.
Boil for one hour, add cool water to bring the temp back down aiming for 65 degrees
Pitch 90g of "bread improver" and check temp. ( 66 degrees ) stir like mad for a minute, lid the stockpot and wrap up in
towels.

SO far so good ... Checked it 4.5 hours later, temp has dropped back to 56 degrees and the liquid has thinned out and lost that "glugly" thick syrup appearance ... ( woo hoo, I think lol .. taste test ... light sweetness !!! hmmm - checked a sample of grain with iodine drops, went black ... Starch still present ). Added in another 35g of "bread improver" and leave it sit some more ...

Will report back after I check it again later.

I must have something good happening so far? I expect I'm going to need to top up with regular sugar with the amount of grain I have used and I'm not expecting a super great outcome from what I have done but I'm interested to see how well it works. If was going all grain how much malted grain would you use for a 25L wash and what hydrometer reading would you hope for if you had an exceptional conversion take place?

Cheers
GTH

[crow]

Grump if you want to do an interesting experiment add no sugar at all , take gravity readings and and run it then report the amount of spirit produced at what ABV . This imfo would be very useful to a great many ppl plus I haven't seen anyone else report on doing this and this is the only way to tell for sure the diastatic power of the improver

[grumpthehermit]

Great Idea.

But I think I won't have enough sugar from this experiment to make a weak beer.

I was planning on dividing it in two then working out how much more sugar to add to so I hit an ABV arount 12 - 13%.

Just checked it again, still 50 degrees Celsius, has gone very clear, looks like a TPW, lightly sweet to taste.

Stirred it up again and took another grain sample, the iodine still turns black.

Have run out of time to play today, will leave it overnight now and decide it's fate in the morning.

Tell you what though, I'm going to the produce shop next week to see what bulk cracked grain they sell !!!

:D

Cheers
GTH

[crow]

reckon I'd aim for more like 7 to 9 % . this amylase will still need to activate at a given temp and denature if you go over it , I assume you have already added it as I read you are doing iodine tests. If it is alpha amylase that will be between 71 and 73 degrees centigrade if Beta it will be 68 to 70 (its more likely alpha) of cause there are other ones but they are not likely to be in bread improver. Now if you have gone over 73 you will need to re add it as it will be denatured (killed/sterilized)

[Sam.]

Your initial boil may have fucked it all?....

[crow]

Your initial boil may have fucked it all?....

No Sam my stuff up didn't read it properly he added it as it cooled to 65 . Ok Grump that was maybe a little to cool to fully activate although apparently it will slowly convert though out the ferment to some degree. I would take it back up to say 72 degrees and hold it between 70.5 and 72.5 for say 1/2 an hr and see how that converts, cause without knowing how much enzyme is in it it will be a bit hit and miss to work out how much is needed except to say I don't think you can add to much

[rookie]

If was going all grain how much malted grain would you use for a 25L wash and what hydrometer reading would you hope for if you had an exceptional conversion take place?

Cheers
GTH

Hi GTH

The answer to your question is 7 kgs of a barley like Golden Promise (LDK 308) with a mashing efficiency of 80% (which I normally beat) should give you 1.069 SG for slightly more than 10% ABV if it ferments dry, which it will normally do provided you do mashing rests at 62-58c for b-amylase and not go over 67c when doing your a-amylase rest. Your malt to barley 0r grain ratio is dependant upon the Diastatic Power (DP) of your malt. A DP of 35 means that the malt can convert itself and most Golden Promise malts have a DP of around 150 so they can convert near to 3 times their weight of non malted grain in addition to converting them self.

Now having said all that you did ask how much I would use and this is how much I would use - commercial scotch brewers tend to aim for a lower ABV of 7-9% which I believe to be based upon turn around time and efficiency. For me waiting for a mash to do its' thing means I need to devote the best part of a day to do a mashing henceforth I aim for the slightly higher ABV - I have gone for 12% washes with no real problems too.

Perhaps of interest to you Still Spirits have recently released a "whisky distillers yeast" with enzymes and nutrients included in the pack. I don't know how much it sells for as it was provided as a sample - but it may just work with plain cracked (perhaps boiled) grain. Now that would be interesting !! BUT many would agree Still Spirits Turbo Yeast does produce funny flavours and smells unpleasant whilst doing its' thing to sugar - so I guess only time and experimentation will tell if Still Spirits are on to anything.

Another experiment going on is by another poster "Divey" he is experimenting with boiling a grain bill and adding enzymes post boiling. Something along the lines of the Canadian Whiskies. He is very very happy with his first distillate.

Currently, my thoughts for experimentation (mashing is such a pain) go to a trying something like a SAF whisky yeast with added magnesium (Epsom(n?) Salts), a little food grade DAP for nitrogen, an acid to lower ph or to "sour" the grain by doing a preferment (covering the grain for 3-4 days with twice its' depth with water and letting free yeasts "sour" the mash), adding "Beano" for added enzyme activity. BUT time (and how many fermenters my wife is happy to have around the house) limit my experiments.

Good Luck :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Rookie

[rookie]

2 bags of 475g cracked wheat added in

BTW I just ran your grain bill through my spreadsheet and presuming your wheat has an LDK of 325 then an 80% efficiency score should give you SG 1.010. in a 25 litre wash

Regards :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[crow]

Hi rookie I was under the impression that alpha amylase denatures at around 72.67 degrees centigrade, is this inaccurate as 72' is about where I do my final rest . the charts I used had to be converted from Fahrenheit but I thought I had them pretty spot on

[grumpthehermit]

Morning Guys,

Just had a another sneak peak this morning and took a photo.

2012-09-23 05.36.10.jpg

Thanks Rookie, 7kg is allot more than my 950g experiment lol. I really need to go grain shopping !!!

:D

Yes, I added 90 grams of bread improver in at 68 degrees ( was mixed in a cup of cool water as it contains flour and I thought it might muck up if I mixed it straight in to the hot grain ), stirred it through and got 66 degrees and wrapped it straight up. ( then added an extra 35 grams 4.5 hrs later and the temp then was 56 degrees - waste of time ??? )

From the reading I did yesterday I found a site ( can't remember where ... ) that was talking about mashing temps and from my understanding of what I read it said mashing over 65 degrees ( up to 70ish ) would yield more unfermentable sugar. and mashing at 65 degrees and a little less would yield more fermentable sugar?

I have no idea ... I have allot to learn, but it's sweet to taste, it has cleared and lots that "glue" feel but my hydrometer bottoms out in my stockpot before I can get a reading which does not surprise me given the amount of grain I am playing with.

Might do this with oats at some stage.

Cheers
GTH

[rookie]

Hi rookie I was under the impression that alpha amylase denatures at around 72.67 degrees centigrade, is this inaccurate as 72' is about where I do my final rest . the charts I used had to be converted from Fahrenheit but I thought I had them pretty spot on

Hi Croweater

My reading would agree with you however at that temperature the b-amylase is destroyed. My understanding is that In simple terms b-amylase breaks the branches off the starch molecules and a-amylase breaks those branches down from each end. If a b-amylase rest is not included conversion is nowhere near complete. Witness the all grain beer brewers who purposeIy omit the b-amylase rest as allowing b-amylase to do its' thing results in a too dry beer - no sugar. I suspect but have not confirmed that with bourbon and sour mash, omitting the b-amylase rest retains the sweetness that exists in those styles. With (scotch style) whisky or a grain based neutral for gin say, I do both a b-amylase rest at 61-58c and an a-amylase rest at 66-65. I do not go over 66c as I want to try and keep as much b-amylase as possible. After mashing I drain off the wort and sparge my grain bed for 20 minutes at 72c. Note my wort should then contain active enzymes of both a-amylase and b-amylase. Again for (scotch style) whisky my ferments usually go dry with sub 1.000 FSG. For those sweet american whiskies I omit the b-amylase rest.

Regards
Rookie :handgestures-thumbupleft:

the reading I did yesterday I found a site ( can't remember where ... ) that was talking about mashing temps and from my understanding of what I read it said mashing over 65 degrees ( up to 70ish ) would yield more unfermentable sugar. and mashing at 65 degrees and a little less would yield more fermentable sugar?

I think the above explains your comment

[grumpthehermit]

I think the above answers your comment

Yes it does. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Thankyou very much !!!

Cheers
GTH

[grumpthehermit]

2 bags of 475g cracked wheat added in

BTW I just ran your grain bill through my spreadsheet and presuming your wheat has an LDK of 325 then an 80% efficiency score should give you SG 1.010. in a 25 litre wash

Regards :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Ok, here the results.

I have dumped the lot into one spare ( small ... ) beer fermenter I have.

I had to top up with water to stop the hydrometer from bottoming out in the wheat sludge in the bottom lol ...

I measured 1.012 in approx 19 liters of wash

I added 4kg of sugar and filled up with a bit more water to the 23L mark and measured again and now have 1.074.

I have made a starter of of safspirit malt yeast and will pitch it as soon as it's looking super foamy.

On the calcs page, 1.012 down to .990 potentially makes 2.83% ??? Not bad for such a small amount of grain I think???

Cheers
GTH

[crow]

Yep :handgestures-thumbupleft: I included both rests in a mash but I am by no means an expert, @ GTH you might need to get hold of a glucanase type enzyme to brake down that gluten and thin ya mash, these are available at any home brew shop for bugger all

[grumpthehermit]

The mash was nice and thin, not gluggy or gluey at all so I think I'm ok there.

The hydrometer was just bottoming out in the wheat sediment until the extra water I added increased the depth for it to float properly.

:-D

Found this site today, lots to read, good info on temps for mashing in Section 3

http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html

And ... I bought a bottle of Bushmills 16yrs last night ... Going to crack the lid off it this arvo and see what I think of it.

:D

Cheers
GTH

[crow]

yep that shows the most relevant ones for barely just remember don't mash out as unlike brewers we don't want unfermentable sugars left in there. I do one extra rest than they have but that is because oats are quite a lot higher in protein that needs converting ;-)

[grumpthehermit]

Second experiment happening ...

I put 4 bags of rolled oats ( 750g each ) = 3kg into my boiler and filled with 20L of water and heated it up ....

Turned to glue bigtime !!! :handgestures-thumbdown:

boiler started to scorch on the bottom so dumped the lot into a large saucepan and my brewing stockpot.

Cleaned up the boiler and then dumped both containers back into the boiler and added boiling water to get the temp up past 70 degrees, stirred the hell out of it, still very much glue ... added cold water till I hit the 67 degree mark again then dumped in some bread improver and kept stirring.

Within 1 minute the wash changed, became easier to stir ... Amazing ...

Anyway. Covered and let it do it's thing, checked it 4 hours later, thin and watery on top, sweet taste and lots of sediment lol ... took a reading I got 1.024 temp corrected ( 56 degrees ) to 27 degrees gives 1.035 ... if this goes no further the calc says this could yield 5.8% alcohol.

Not bad I think given it's only 3kg of oats ... I bought 7kg but the glue factor killed that idea I swear it was looking like it was going to solidify for a minute there ... ;-)

Cheers
GTH

[stilly_bugger]

I think I'll give the oats a try.
:handgestures-thumbupleft:

[crow]

yes its absolutely amazing how it changes before your eyes, in the last rests. Ok sounds like oats are even better than I thought and I thought they were pretty good (as far as sugar go) Already I have found the DP is way the hell better than I first believed

[grumpthehermit]

Just a quick check again this morning.

1.032 at 45 degrees, temp corrected gives 1.037 at pitching temp of 27 degrees.

So only slightly higher then last night @ 6.06% alcohol if it ferments out to .990

Will get this in a fermenter this afternoon.

And I won't be adding sugar to it ...

:D

Cheers
GTH