Continuous column build

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Re: Continuous column build

Postby Sam. » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:50 pm

From reading the rest of this thread and what you are trying to achieve, you do understand that a thumper is only to create one singular distillation cycle?

If that pic was to scale (not saying it is) you would be much better having a few more plate sections than the thumper.

Unless of course you have run strategy in mind over purity? (haven't seen it mentioned in the thread) :think:
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby crafty83 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:09 pm

Thanks bluc, still have some research and thinking to do before I start the build but I believe it will work well ( if I get it right ) :))
Spewing I passed up some cheap 8" a few weeks ago :angry-banghead:
But hopefully some more comes up
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby db1979 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:53 pm

From what I can gather, it looks like the downcomer that extends into the boiler will cause you issues. If it starts under the liquid level then it won't get a proper vapour lock as the liquid inside it will be boiling and vapours will travel up the downcomer. This will either mean the bottom plate won't hold a fluid bath or the thumper won't start bubbling.

If you changed the downcomer so that it had a trap (cup or J trap) above the liquid level then the thumper won't start bubbling until after the column is loaded and in reflux. This will happen because vapour will choose the path of least resistance and it will choose the downcomer over the thumper. This will then mean your column won't reach full equilibrium until after the thumper is up to temp and bubbling away. I think this will defeat the purpose of making a new design in order to save run time. It will be like having to get your column equilibrated twice instead of the once.

An alternative could be to have a downcomer that makes a 90 degree turn out of the column (into the outside world) from underneath the bottom plate but before the boiler, then an inline tap (like a SS ball valve) before going back into the boiler with a trap on the end. You'd get the column equilibrated and when the bottom plate gets enough fluid bath in it you open up the ball valve (don't use bare hands) and you have a vapour lock and a heat up that doesn't bypass the thumper.

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby crafty83 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:21 pm

That was definitely on my mind db, one of the parts that I need to look at before going ahead. A vapour lock is a must from my understanding.
I was kind of under the impression that a downcomer ending very near the bottom of the boiler and only 1/2 " in diameter or so and running off the first plate will be the vapour lock :think:
The path of least resistance should be the largest outlet, which is the thumper fed by vapour. The downcomer being submerged only 1" or so from the bottom of boiler and being quite small in inside diameter would be very hard to feed but I may be wrong?
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby crafty83 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:32 pm

Img 1 is a fairly standard downcomer creating a lock. Img 2 is my idea into boiler. It is just a larger scale in the scheme of things and should be very efficient (I hope )
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby woodduck » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:35 pm

1/2" will be too small for a downcomer I recon, you might end up with flooding problems.

I agree with db, he's on the money.

Like Sam said why do you want the thumper? Not saying you shouldn't have one or it’s a bad idea just wondering the reason. Is it to get a cleaner product or to get all the alc out of the boiler into the still for faster take off? If it’s for purity I don't think it would be worth the effort. If it's for the latter remember it will need to be big enough to hold all the alc that can be produced from that boiler eg 120ltrs of 10% wash at 100% take off (I know we can't get 100% but it’s late and my maths isn't working just now) is 12 ltrs so your thumper will need to be atleast that or it will be a pain in the rear to run effectively, trust me my thumpers not big enough so I can't use it for the fast takeoff strategy, it’s just there to look pretty and take the puke from foamy washes.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby woodduck » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:36 pm

#2 may not work as db said as the wash will be boiling and vapor may go straight up it.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby bluc » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:38 pm

1/2" downcommer would be to small I reakon you should stick with 3/4. I would have thought a downcommer to bottom of boiler would have worked fine yes the liquid is boiling but would be a long section submerged. Still I am no expert either. Go the j trap and have the tube outlet above liquid level.
Suddenly realised what db and woody meant it wouldnt be a vapour lock at all :oops:

Beaten :D
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby bluc » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:53 pm

I would have thought as long as the thumper keeps ahead of collection rate it would speed up the run.
Wouldnt speeding it up by stripping all alcohol to the thumper than out to pc end up slower?
At 3lh collection rate at full reflux it would take 4h to get the thumper primed(assuming you stopped it overflowing) then further 4hours to get it out through pc.
Wouldnt it be better to run it above normal takeoff speed but not so fast that the thumper cant keep up?
Say 1h in full reflux gives you 3l in the thumper you start taking product at 3l h which gives you a continous 3l buffer in the thumper. By the time you collect 3l another 3l is in the thumper :think:

Numbers are just examples .
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby woodduck » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:00 pm

Another thing I just thought of, if your doing it for faster take off the fact your distillate is returning to your boiler instead of your thumper, the clean alc you've produced has been put back with the wash so effective won't be any faster as the reason a inline thumper can make things quicker is because the alc is all clean and primed out of the wash ready to go and the heat from the alcahol depleated boiler is pushing harder to get it out quicker. Maybe this link will explain it better than me.

http://www.aussiedistiller.com.au/viewt ... 49#p117215
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby bluc » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:09 pm

Sounds like the real fun is yet to come :D
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby db1979 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:43 am

woodduck wrote:the fact your distillate is returning to your boiler instead of your thumper, the clean alc you've produced has been put back with the wash so effective won't be any faster as the reason a inline thumper can make things quicker is because the alc is all clean and primed out of the wash ready to go and the heat from the alcahol depleated boiler is pushing harder to get it out quicker.


:text-+1: I think this is an issue that this design won't be able to find a solution to, and if built you'd eventually end up pulling it apart and either go inline thumper or just add extra plates.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby crafty83 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:07 am

All things to think about...
I could run a return from column to thumper instead of downcomer?
I was under the impression that the clean distillate will rise and the unwanted returns to the boiler...at least this is how some commercial setups work from what I have seen.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby ThePaterPiper » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:38 am

What if he were to use the normal downcomer as in image 2, but manually fill it with clean or distilled water at assembly. Then it would have a higher boiling point than the wash and would be displaced by the hotter distillate over time during the run?
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby woodduck » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:47 am

If he wants a downcomer into the boiler the best type would be the usual cup design or a j trap. We were just not sure how well a straight tube into the boiling wash would work. I can see the appeal of a thumper I'm just not sure how well it will work in this situation. I'm not trying to knock your efforts I would just hate for you to build this rig and then find out it may not work. I'm all for new designs, hell I made a three way thumper, admittedly it realy wasn't that successful but I had fun trying and proved the concept. We're just trying to help in the brainstorming process that's all.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby crafty83 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:25 pm

The feedback is certainly helping me figure out which way I want/need to go with certain things.
I am thinking that if I do go for thumper, the downcomer should be a return to thumper.
If I dont go for a thumper, I will replace it with an alembic to stop puke. If I go this way the downcomer will be plumbed back into boiler.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby A&O » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:07 pm

Another thing to consider Crafty is if you make it modular using standard fittings like triclamp joints, then your work won’t be a waste of build. You will be able to mix and match all different combinations to improve the way your still works and enable you to maximise your height restrictions. Good luck bloke, most of the world is built on trial and error.
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby crafty83 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:37 pm

Cheers A&O, that is the idea...
Failure is the best teacher, brutal but by god do you learn :D
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Re: Continuous column build

Postby scythe » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:42 am

In my mind the straight tube to almost the bottom of the thumper wont work as a downcomer/return as it will always be the path or least resistance for the ethanol within the tube.
A standard downcomer is what you want there.

If you want to save time go for 6" column, this basically at least doubles the build cost.

If you want to minimise column height make a custom boiler that is wider than it is tall, and go electric.
A bit more costly than a keg if you dont have the skills and resources to make it your self.

In the scheme of things what type of spirit you want to male will determine how long it will take to make.

Brandy or Rum is the fastest to run or make and usually does not require as long to age,

Whiskey/whisky takes about the same time to make as rum but will be aged for longer,

Neutral takes more time to make as you are stripping all the flavour you can and may require another pass if your not happy with how neutral the first run through is, but you can drink it straight away with no aging,

Gin takes the longest to make as idealy you will only use the hearts cut of you most neutral neutral to then vapour infuse with botanicals, again tho it can be drunk instantly.

The above is why most new distilleries offer a vodka and/or Gin as their first option, no ageing means they can sell it the day after its been made.

No need for an alembic ball or dome either under a bubbler just a short section of column diameter straight pipe the length of the downcomer is enough, you wont be running a full boiler so any puke will be cleaned up by reducing power and puting the column back into full reflux.

No need for complicated return plumbing either gravity will do all the work for you.
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