Planning a build

[redcane]

I'm planning to build a still head, and there is conveniently a long weekend coming up (although I think I'll take longer than that to complete it). I want to make a still out of this:

Basically I want to turn my 30L 'momi' urn and $300 into a still that can be run in pot mode or Vapour Management Reflux. I've been reading the forums (and other sources of information) on and off for quite a while, so I think I'm treading a fairly well worn path here.

I'm hoping to just mount it on the lid of the urn with a screw fitting.

The first part of the plan is to cut about a 90mm gap into the plastic handle on the lid. Then cut a tight fitting 50mm hole for some kind of threaded fitting. I was thinking I'd screw an end cap on the bottom of the lid after drilling some holes in it to hold any packing up in the column, but still allow vapour through. I guess I'd need a PTFE (or cork?) gasket on both sides of the urn lid. I'm concerned my $80 ebay urn is not going to hold up to continuous boiling, so I'm hoping this won't be too hard to adapt to another boiler if need be. I was thinking I'd probably go to the home brew shop and just buy a boiler if this one carks it, but I'm not sure what sort of fittings they use. I would also need to plug up the level gauge on the urn (I suspect it uses plastics), and possibly the tap (when I'm not using it for beer brewing).

After that I'm planning on using the main column for both pot still and reflux still, with a ferrule and tri-clamp join to allow disconnecting the top of the column from the longer pipe. Similarly a screw on fitting for a liebig condenser allows the re-use of a single condenser on both heads. My rough plan is:

Forgive my shoddy drawing. All the joins that aren't threaded would be soldered (except the top on the reflux). I'm looking forward to learning some new skills working on this size pipe.

Given the height of the column, the liebig could really be up to 1.5m long, and it should be able to swivel around the screw fitting to change it's angle. Things I haven't nailed down (haven't come across good guidance for) are the size/length of the reflux condenser coil (It looks like about 1' of final length once coiled should do it) and if the diameter of the liebig is going to be an issue.

As a rough bill of materials to build the pot still part of the project:
Around 2m of 50mm copper pipe
1.5m 6.35mm copper pipe
1.5m 9.5mm copper pipe
1x50mm 90° elbow
50mm->25mm reducer
Some kind of 25mm screw coupling
some kind of 50mm threaded ferrule?
threaded 50mm end cap
25mm->6.35mm reducer
6.35mm 90°elbow
2x9.5mm ->1/4" reducer T's
2x50mm ferrules
50mm tri-clamp
Hose fittings for cooling in/out

Addons for VM reflux:
50mm->25mm T
reflux coil pipe, 3 meters of 6.35mm?
50mm end cap
house fittings for cooling in/out
25mm gate valve

I guess it would also be good to get some power control on the urn, but am I right in thinking this might not be necessary if I can control the reflux correctly?

I've gotten some quotes and it looks like I can get a 6m length of 50mm copper for 196.60, or pay around $50m. Anyone in New England want about 3m of 50mm copper pipe? If I have to buy the whole 6 meters it is going to eat into my budget. As I need a minimum of about 2 meters I'd probably be getting 3 to be on the safe side. At that point it's not a lot more to get the whole 6 meters and have enough left over to build another one! I'm sure I'll only be able to get some of the parts on my list this weekend, and have to find the rest, but I'm at least hoping to make a start.

Any other comments on design or hints on parts sourcing would be most welcome!

[5 o'clock]

Hi Redcane,

Where in the New England area are you?

If you cut your black handle in the lid will it lose some of its strength and rigidity?

I have a similar urn already modified with a salad bowl lid with stainless clamps to hold it on.

I am waiting on my new keg to be modified so don't need the urn anymore.

PM me if you are interested in seeing it. I am in Tamworth.

Cheers,

Richard

[ticknaylor]

Hey mate as someone that built a boka originally from an urn I would say theres a reason why people use kegs. Kegs already have a fitting that is compatible with 2" ferrules not saying you cant use a screw fitting many have but if you read the standards for 3A sanitary fittings threads aren't allowed like any standard you its over designed but for a reason. Triclamps really easy to clean and dismantle. I went down that path wish I had of listen to everyone though. A 2 or 3 ring burner can be used or you can modify it for electric elements which need to be installed by an electrician. An urn has a thermostat which means it clicks on and off to maintain a constant temp in the boiler which doesn't work for our purpose in distilling you cant control a still by heat input. Needs to be removed for your urn to work. Shop around you should be able to find somewhere you don't need to buy 6m lengths. Got a plumber mate? Hate to be a wanker but theres link in tips from the work bench that could help ya have a gander heaps of good info in there on kegs electrical setups burners etc

[Dominator]

Like tick said, you would be better off with a keg, but that does not mean you can't use your urn. You will need to disable the built in thermostat and get/make yourself a power controller. 2400w will be too much power for a 2" pot still on a spirit run.
Instead of buying ferrules for your column, you could make ezy flanges. A search will get you heaps of info and guides on how to make them. Also you will need a seal, as well as a tri clamp to join them, I didn't see that on your list.
I don't think a 3/8 over 1/4 liebig condenser is going to work, especially in pot mode. It will create way too much restriction. You really need to go at least 3/4 over 1/2 or even 1" over 3/4. You can get 1/2 and 3/4 copper pipe and fittings from bunnings.
If you don't already have them, you will need some tools for your build, a butane or mapp gas torch, solder, flux and a hacksaw will be your main tools.
For your reflux coil, a 150mm double helix will be more than enough for a 2" still. I can't remember how much 1/4" I used to make mine, maybe someone else can chime in, but I have a feeling 3m wont be enough.
Have you had a look for scrap metal recyclers near you. You can save a packet on copper and you could get 3m of 2" for buger all.

[redcane]

Thanks for the prompt feedback guys!

If you cut your black handle in the lid will it lose some of its strength and rigidity?

I don't think the handle itself is providing much rigidity, although I guess it must provide some. The way the lid is shaped (inverted dome and ridge) I think it should have some rigidity. I suppose I'll always find out, and I'm not too worried about mangling the lid.

I have a similar urn already modified with a salad bowl lid with stainless clamps to hold it on.

I'm curious how thick the walls of the salad bowl are?

I am waiting on my new keg to be modified so don't need the urn anymore.

Hey mate as someone that built a boka originally from an urn I would say theres a reason why people use kegs.

Kegs certainly are sturdy, I can see why people use them. I do like that I can open the urn up to clean it though. I think if I was to move on from the urn I'd still lean towards one of the HBS boilers.

Kegs already have a fitting that is compatible with 2" ferrules not saying you cant use a screw fitting many have but if you read the standards for 3A sanitary fittings threads aren't allowed like any standard you its over designed but for a reason.

The thread would be sealed outside the vapour path, and constantly subjected to vapours at 70+ degrees so I would have thought this would cover it. I can see why you would avoid threads in your brewing gear since you can get bacterial build up in them (although my fermenters all have screw thread taps). I guess I could learn to weld and weld a ferrule on, and this would also strengthen the hole in the lid. The main reason I went with the screw fitting is I can picture myself achieving it! I guess I can just take it to a local machine shop and get it fitted.

An urn has a thermostat which means it clicks on and off to maintain a constant temp in the boiler which doesn't work for our purpose in distilling you cant control a still by heat input. Needs to be removed for your urn to work.

The urn seems to have a click at the very upper end of the thermostat. I'm hoping this means it's just switched on at that point, but I'm also happy to open it up and bypass the thermostat if this proves not to be the case

Shop around you should be able to find somewhere you don't need to buy 6m lengths. Got a plumber mate?

I can buy per the meter from Reece's here, but it doesn't seem good value. I've asked a plumber just to see, but so far no luck.

Hate to be a wanker but theres link in tips from the work bench that could help ya have a gander heaps of good info in there on kegs electrical setups burners etc

I'll take a bit more of a look there. I'd take a bit more convincing to head down the keg route I think.

2400w will be too much power for a 2" pot still on a spirit run.

I thought if you could knock back down the vapour it didn't matter how much power you had. I've obviously missed something here, is it an issue of flooding the column?

Instead of buying ferrules for your column, you could make ezy flanges. A search will get you heaps of info and guides on how to make them. Also you will need a seal, as well as a tri clamp to join them, I didn't see that on your list.

I guess I can always try to make an ezy flange and if I stuff it up cut it off and put on a ferrule. I had thought the ferrules would make it easier. I had a tri-clamp on the list but no seals, and I figured I'd either be making a PTFE gasket or similar. I guess I'd still need to make a gasket for the ezy flange.

I don't think a 3/8 over 1/4 liebig condenser is going to work, especially in pot mode. It will create way too much restriction. You really need to go at least 3/4 over 1/2 or even 1" over 3/4. You can get 1/2 and 3/4 copper pipe and fittings from bunnings.

Once it's knocked back into liquid the flow rate shouldn't be too high, but I guess there will be a lot of vapour speed at the start of the liebig. I'm quite happy to go larger on the liebig since the parts are a lot cheaper. I spotted the reducer Ts there the other day, but I didn't notice exactly which sizes they had.

If you don't already have them, you will need some tools for your build, a butane or mapp gas torch, solder, flux and a hacksaw will be your main tools.

I've got a friend with a 'decent sized plumbing torch' that he inherited from somewhere, and hacksaws. I was planning to buy solder and flux with the 2" pipe.

For your reflux coil, a 150mm double helix will be more than enough for a 2" still. I can't remember how much 1/4" I used to make mine, maybe someone else can chime in, but I have a feeling 3m wont be enough.

Cool, thanks. I guess there is no problem with going too big on the coil, I can always fit a valve to slow it down. I'll do a bit more research for this bit.

Have you had a look for scrap metal recyclers near you. You can save a packet on copper and you could get 3m of 2" for buger all.

I've called a few (none seem to be open outside work hours) and dropped in at one once. None of them seem to hang on to any copper for any period of time around here. A mate of a mate works at one so I've been trying to get him to keep an eye out. I'm pretty well at the point where I just want to get the gear so I can get this done :)

[Zak Griffin]

One bit of advice that I (as someone in a similar situation, planning and slowly building my first still) can give is not to rush... It'll happen, and the more you read and learn, the more sense everything will make. Your plan is similar to mine (I'm going 3" Boka/Pot, with a common column and interchangeable heads)

As far as I can see, you have to have a preeetty good reason not to go with a keg for a boiler, especially if you're going for a 2" column.

You'll need to go bigger on the Liebig, 3/4" over 1/2" seems to be the go.

I also find it hard to believe that it is possible to fuck up an easy-flange...

Whatever way you go with it, good luck, and welcome to the forums :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[redcane]

Fair enough. I've been reading/researching for over a year to get the main concepts in my head (I first posted a G'day about a year ago!). But I only started sketching in the last week or so (mainly because I would like to get started this weekend since I've got some time on my hands to actually make some progress). I should probably sit on it for a bit longer, incorporate some feedback into the design and see if I can source some scrap copper. I am really keen to get started though!

I just can't visualise how I'd make it work with a keg, in terms of cleaning and installing an element. I'll do some more reading I guess.

You'll need to go bigger on the Liebig, 3/4" over 1/2" seems to be the go.

I'm happy to go with 3/4" over 1/2" liebig. Seems like enough people are suggesting that size.

If I had to rate myself as a handy man I'd only say "not useless". I should probably just give an easy-flange a go, after all it's called an "easy" flange!

[redcane]

Far out - I've realised another reason people use kegs, you can buy them brand new for $105! It makes me wonder why the reconditioned soft drink kegs are so expensive in comparison.

I'll definitely be going for a 2" flange for a tri-clamp setup so I can swap to a keg if I need to, I am even reconsidering hacking up the urn (I can keep it for brewing). Even if I have to get a fill/cleaning port welded in it still seems pretty good value.

[Zak Griffin]

The little soft drink legs are expensive because so many people use them for kegging home brew beer...

Easy flanges really are just that, it took me less than half an hour to do my first two the other day. Having the option to convert straight to a keg if/when you get one is definitely a positive.

[redcane]

I'm one of those people that uses them for kegging beer, but had I know the commercial beer kegs were priced like that I might have approached it differently. Although it does mean I can fit two kegs in my fridge instead of one, and they are a lot more convenient to handle.

I'm reconsidering the need to go to so much effort to mangle an urn, so I might go straight to the keg option.

[Lowndsey]

Since you have already got the urn there is no harm in giving it a go. But I reckon you will move to a keg pretty quickly and outgrow a 25 litre boiler. That's not much wash to be running through and makes cuts that bit harder with a smaller amount of product being outputted. Whatever you decide mate...enjoy it. That first build is always special.

[redcane]

I've secured a keg. A little bit more saving to do to build both columns but I think I can still make a start on the pot head this weekend.

[redcane]

Oh yeah - my plumber came through! Good things come to those who wait, and I didn't even have to wait that long!

[MacStill]

so you went a keg, what did your plumber mate knock up for you ?

You do realise it didnt happen if there's no pics :teasing-neener:

[redcane]

Hah, not quite. The plumber came through with some pipe! Hopefully I can collect it for the weekend and start taking happy snaps!

Waiting on a courier to bring the keg, I'd be surprised if it gets here by Tuesday.

[MacStill]

So what's the big change ? thought you weren't going to be convinced to go for a keg for a while.

Good move IMHO :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[redcane]

I had some reasons why I didn't think a keg was the way to go:
1. I had thought that getting a keg of non-dubious origin would be far more expensive than it is, thus being out of my budget. I think I figured this by using the soft drink keg prices as a baseline.
2. I had/have some concern over cleaning. I often end up lightly scrubbing my homebrew soft drink kegs after running a batch of beer through one. I guess this is compounded because I wasn't confident about working on a keg to cut in a fill port or a hole for an element, but after some reading this doesn't look too bad (even if I have to get someone to do some welding for me).
3. I already had an urn and I was being a tightwad.
4. It seems a lot bigger than I need.

Since I worked out how cheap it is to get one that pretty well ameliorated 1 and 3. It will probably put the finish date back a bit in terms of buying the last parts for the project, but I can see it will be a better result. For number 2 I had a bit of a think about the light scrubbing I have had to do on my beer kegs, and I figured that it would probably be ok with a good soaking, or I can get a long brush. Especially as I'm not conditioning in the keg there is less yeast activity so I should have less sediment. In any case I think I will put in a fill port that will give me access to the inside of the keg. In terms of size I'm not sure I will ever do a batch over about 23 litres (since that is what I normally ferment in one go) but I guess it gives me the option to. I don't even think the keg is much different in height to the urn so there is no real drawback.

[Zak Griffin]

Keep in mind that it isn't as important to keep distilling gear clean as it is with your beer making stuff...

[redcane]

You do realise it didnt happen if there's no pics :teasing-neener:

Managed to collect the pipe today. Plumber was kind enough to cut the pipe into the lengths I needed too! I forgot one 10 cm joining section.



First thing I've realised is the 2"->1" reducer doesn't fit on the pipe or inside it. How does that work?

[Zak Griffin]

Are you building a bubbler or a pot?!