Hi to all (again)

[MaKa]

I thought I would post on here again as it has been a while and I feel like a newbie again. A few years back I purchased a 4 inch FSD neutraliser from MacsStill when I was living in WA. Work load meant that I wasn't able to devote as much time to this as I would have liked to this equipment. Fast forward to 2019 I have moved states, I am now in Melbourne, and I have re-set up my brewing space and fingers crossed I have some more spare time.

I have a TPW down at the moment as I plan on playing around with some gin and espresso vodka ideas I have floating around in my head. My last gin experiment had a very strong cinnamon flavour which wasn't to my liking, although a bit more research I have a few new ideas to work through this (one of which is discussed below).

One issue I had previously was an inability to run my still in full reflux. I was running a submersible pump from a tank to supply cooling water to the RC and PC. This only ended up providing a total of 7 l/m to both coolers. Again I am going to use a tank to supply cooling water, something about using mains water for cooling doesn't feel right. After fixing a few plumbing issues I am able to sustain about 10 l/min per cooler. I haven't finish testing this out yet, such as restricting flow to the product cooler to push more to the reflux cooler. However, I am super excited to have found (from this site) a commercial power controller from KegLand if I still have this problem once I get this set up running. I would have loved to have one of these previously.

I guess that is enough for now. I expect to be a little more involved in this forum from now. :wave:

[The Stig]

Welcome back MaKa :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[woodduck]

Welcome back mate. I hope you have your cooling sorted now. All the best with your recipes, if you get a winner feel free to share it :D

[MaKa]

Thanks team.

Between the improvements to plumbing and a power controller I am sure I will be sorted out.

When I settle on something I like I will be sure to share it around.

[hillzabilly]

G-day mate ,sounds like ya pump may be a bit on the small side,I would use mains for a run or two and find out exactly how much flow is required for full reflux plus a margin for coolant to increase in temp ,and then find a pump that can deliver it plus the extra.A lack of cooling is just going ta be problematic down the road,with ferments of 150-200lt needing 3 strip runs and a spirit run wich can go over 12hours ,wich will put a big load on a recirculating cooling system,and more monitoring output flow and re-adjusting RC flow as the coolant temp increases,wich may be more of a problem in warmer areas.Powering down a run will make it longer from start ta finish as well I run 3600wt and have a 4000lt rainwater tank and a 2000wt pump and have never had any probs.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[hillzabilly]

Some of the thin stainless braided water lines can be restrictive ta flow ,with mains pressure this is not a problem ,but with submersive and pond pumps they struggle to deliver the pressure to get the required flow thru thin tube or cooling coils ,swapping them for 1/2inch hose may get an increase in flow for the same pump size.cheers hillzabilly ;-)

[MaKa]

Hi hillzabilly,

I agree with most of what you say with regards to reusing water for cooling. Managing cooling water temperature is critical. As the water heats up your cooling efficiency decreases. The temperature difference between the vapour and cooling water in the reflux condenser reduces.

You peaked my curiosity on this issue so I did the math on this. I was curious as to how much cooling water would be required to run the still in full reflux. I have made a couple of assumptions on this to simplify the calculation.
1. The still is 100% efficient. All electrical energy is converted into vapour (i.e. there is no energy loss to sound, the environment etc)
2. The batch is a simple solution, only exists as water and ethanol. All other components are assumed to exists in negligible quantity or do not impact any latent heats of solution
3. Ethanol vapour is at 95% ethanol and remains constant.

The worst case scenario is at higher alcohol concentrations, however, I capped this at 40% (w/w) as this is the max I would run the still at.

Assuming the assumptions are correct and one element is operated at 2400W the minimum volume of cooling flow required to achieve full reflux is as follows:
1 deg C temp gain of cooling water across RC = 0.53 l/s required for full reflux
2 deg C temp gain of cooling water across RC = 0.27 l/s
3 deg C temp gain of cooling water across RC = 0.18 l/s
4 deg C temp gain of cooling water across RC = 0.13 l/s

These are all based on perfect conditions and a lot of system assumptions.

These flow rates are currently achievable by my cooling system. So providing I can reject the heat energy from the cooling water then I should be able to manage the still. I will need to check what sort of temperature gain I expect across the RC.

My intention is to reuse cooling water as much as possible, however as required I will use mains water. I have thought about this and I have designed the system to allow for a quick change over if required without to much work. Managing power to the elements just gives me more control the inputs to the system.

For full disclosure I am familiar with this sort of calculation. I have completed a few.

[hillzabilly]

I come from the hands on skool,sounds like you have a scientific background or experience,I only got great results and consistency from my 4inch FSD rig after updateing the recirculating coolant capacity 3times and pump twice until were I am today,I have seen many who underestimated the stills progressive coolant requirement myself included started running 2400wt then 3600wt and with the thumper 5100wt ,or you do big ferments and multiple runs over a weekend ,compared to small ferments and shorter runs when you first get your rig and it takes a while befor ya realize what sort of production one can archieve,then you go from a 50lt boiler to a 80-100ltboiler ta really put the foot down .The point I am trying ta make is most of us tend ta scale up as we go along and having extra capacity will save you having to repeat my and others mistake and save time and money upsizeing capacity down the road.Plus I think for safety sake one should not have coolant maxed out and no safety margin ,pump filters and lines can become blocked overtime slowing things a bit as well cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Lowie]

G'day Maka. :greetings-waveyellow: Yes, this hobby uses a lot of water. Fortunately (or un-fortunately...) I have a swimming pool so I run my waste water into. It's a win-win for me as the pool gets some nice warm water (saves me running the solar) and I'm filling at the same time. It's a bit like drinking beer on special at the pub; the more you drink the more you save. :laughing-rolling:

[Yurugaboy]

I come from the hands on skool,sounds like you have a scientific background or experience,I only got great results and consistency from my 4inch FSD rig after updateing the recirculating coolant capacity 3times and pump twice until were I am today,I have seen many who underestimated the stills progressive coolant requirement myself included started running 2400wt then 3600wt and with the thumper 5100wt ,or you do big ferments and multiple runs over a weekend ,compared to small ferments and shorter runs when you first get your rig and it takes a while befor ya realize what sort of production one can archieve,then you go from a 50lt boiler to a 80-100ltboiler ta really put the foot down .The point I am trying ta make is most of us tend ta scale up as we go along and having extra capacity will save you having to repeat my and others mistake and save time and money upsizeing capacity down the road.Plus I think for safety sake one should not have coolant maxed out and no safety margin ,pump filters and lines can become blocked overtime slowing things a bit as well cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Agree - this varies with summer and winter also. But it can be handled . Use tap water to experiment. I found the soaker hose is way to restrictive. The bubbler sprinkler just on works fine. But I sometimes need a bit more on a hot day .

The lawn is green as green . But I just keep and eye o; reflux and parrot temps. Just a quick measure along with rate of production.

I now used full on RC for spirit runs and power control. And no RC for pot runs. Wouldn’t recommend running at to little cooling capacity.

Cheers

[MaKa]

sounds like you have a scientific background or experience

Yeah I have a bit of education around this sort of thing. This is one of the reasons that I love this hobby!! After studying it I can apply it to the real world.

Yes, this hobby uses a lot of water. Fortunately (or un-fortunately...) I have a swimming pool so I run my waste water into. It's a win-win for me as the pool gets some nice warm water (saves me running the solar) and I'm filling at the same time.

I wish that I had a swimming pool for this sort of option. This water tank is about 6000l though so there is a bit of heat capacity and storage there. I just do not like wasting water.

I found the soaker hose is way to restrictive. The bubbler sprinkler just on works fine. But I sometimes need a bit more on a hot day .

The lawn is green as green

Its a pity as I live in a town house and really do not have much of a garden. I do use some of the cooling water to water a few plants that are dotted around.

Where I have ended is running the Product Condenser with recycled water from the tank. The Reflux Condenser is being run from mains water. This discharges to the rain water tank. Even with consecutive runs I havent had much trouble with condensing anything I throw at the Product Condenser, even when running in pot still mode. My water tank is built under the house and feeds the toilets, so at least the water that is being used in the Reflux Condenser can be re-used.

Quite a few years ago I used to have a small 25 litre still which I run from a 50 litre tub that I built a small forced air flow radiator. This was able to get sufficient heat rejection so that I didn't have to manage the water too much, occasionally I would have to top it up to make up for system losses.

I now used full on RC for spirit runs and power control. And no RC for pot runs. Wouldn’t recommend running at to little cooling capacity.

I am thinking that a power controller is going to be my next investment. When running though macerated spirit I feel that the still in a pot still mode runs a little quick. Although I am thinking first I will try running the still with no packing or plates but with a very small amount of water to the reflux condenser to see if this provides the control I want

[scythe]

Did you perchance use 3 or so white/grey plastic basket/tubs and use it like a waterfall/evapourative cooler for your water?

Maybe consider gutting an AC unit and using that as a radiator if you have limited space.

Some one on here is able to recirculate about 40L

[hillzabilly]

My bro in Melbourne uses a similar rainwater tank set up ,he had an extra line added from the pump(wich delivers very good pressure) that is mounted to the tank ,to the brew still area ,with a double outlet with valves (like from a normal outside tap ) to supply RC and PC ,then outlets get run up into the gutter wich returns the water to the tank.cheers hillzabilly ;-)

[MaKa]

Did you perchance use 3 or so white/grey plastic basket/tubs and use it like a waterfall/evapourative cooler for your water?

Maybe consider gutting an AC unit and using that as a radiator if you have limited space.

Some one on here is able to recirculate about 40L

I actually just used a frame with shade cloth stretched over each side. I then ran the hot water over this and had a small fan to force air flow. It was quite effective. I have thought about an old radiator before. So long as I have a use for the water I am fine with storing it.