Some help with yield issues

[timboss]

Hi All

I'm hoping to get some ideas on why I'm getting such low yield on my runs. This has been the case with pretty much every run I've done so far with the 15-20 runs I've done. Generally I'll only get around 1 to 1.5 litres before I'm well into tails, my last run on Saturday night of a 50 litre DWWG was around 1.1 litres before I detected tails, I kept running none the less incase my nose is just broken and aired them 48 hours... Were definitely tails!

I'm doing 50 litre washes in which I aim for around 1.070 OG, FG about .990, so wash should be around 10% ABV. I usually do WBAB, DWWG and MacWhiskey with the same results over all types. In some cases, I've had (At least what I've thought) are hearts go cloudy when diluting... Not sure if it's relevent to anything or I'm just not picking up tails with my nose when I go to dilute....I've wasted several entire runs this way!

I follow Mac's instructions when running.

PC and deflag are run via mains water, with a 100kpa reducer for consistant flow. Everything seems as it should. I run inside my garage so environmental factors such as wind shouldn't be an issue. I'll soon be running the cooling from an IBC, not sure if that really changes anything though.

Checked for leaks.... I'm pretty confident there is none. Mac (Who is always a great help!) gave me some tips when I last visited his shop, such as tightening the clamps as much as I can by hand and then using a spanner to give it another turn.

I'm seriously at a loss! And I'm drinking everything I make quicker than I can produce!

Happy to hear any theories, hints, tips people may have, no matter how simple they are!

[Sam.]

Have you measured your off take rate?

Have you tried airing before determining what you want to keep?

Also pure hearts cut are very thin if your senses are good. All depends how far you go out ;-)

[dogbreath vodka]

If you feel that you have it all by the book, perhaps try changing one thing at a time.
Different wash - try a TPW or a UJ

Different speed of take off - faster or slower.... in this case perhaps slower.

But just change one at a time/per run.
That way you should be able to track down what it isn't .... or perhaps what it is.
Either way it will start the process of elimination.

If you have a cloudy hearts... there is definitely something going on there. :wtf:

Let the site know what you changed and the results. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
We might be able to nut it out with you.

[bayshine]

I've had similar problems in the past :crying-blue:
And running to fast was one of my problems
I've also found that my water was high in iron(common problem in Perth) and this stress's the yeast and seems to make more tails.
I now only use reverse osmosis water, adjust ph to 5.5,add some dap and calcium carbonate and a pinch of Epsom salts.
This has definitely helped me to get a larger hearts cut because I also am very sensitive about my cuts.
I don't pretend to be a guru but I believe if you can make your yeast as happy as can be they will give more hearts :handgestures-thumbupleft:
And after doing alot of AG washes, I've found the sugar head washes definitely produce nastier tails.
I also have the luxury of a 100l boiler(can fit 120l)and now alway do double washes and strip half in pot still mode then add it to the second half and do the spirit run and this separate's the fractions better and gives me a larger hearts cut.
I hope this helps

[WTDist]

on a single run how many litres of wash do you put in the boiler at your 10% abv?

and with this how much is your overall collection amount in litres

and the ABV of your collected spirit?

Does your still collect all the spirit it is meant to but the majority smells/taste like tails?

[Muppet]

My two best guesses are a vapor leak (most likely) or running fast, personally I think your losing vapor.

[WTDist]

My two best guesses are a vapor leak (most likely) or running fast, personally I think your losing vapor.

happened to me when i found a leak the first time on my T500, got barely 2L from a 25L wash and it was mostly tails n heads

[Muppet]

My two best guesses are a vapor leak (most likely) or running fast, personally I think your losing vapor.

happened to me when i found a leak the first time on my T500, got barely 2L from a 25L wash and it was mostly tails n heads

Ive had it twice after breaking my bubbler down... Right piss off after waiting for washes.

[MacStill]

I'm interested to know the take off rate and total volume of spirit collected before assuming it's a vapor leak ;-)

[bayshine]

I'm interested to know the take off rate and total volume of spirit collected before assuming it's a vapor leak ;-)

I would agree and would suggest next run to take of fore shots for 20 mins then get it running at your toothpick size stream and then time how long it takes to get half a litre and do the maths to see if your take speed is around 2liters an hour
There will be about 5l of 100% alcohol total in a 50l wash at 10% :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[timboss]

Firstly let me say thanks for all the input here! I'm on a phone which I'm pretty bad at using to type. So hopefully I've answered everyones questions!

Take off rate:
I actually time it with a stop watch, I usually aim for around 2 litres an hour. I'm assuming 2 - 2.5litres this is still the correct rate?

Boiler charge:
I guess would be around 45 litres once I avoid the crap at the bottom (100 litre boiler)

Overall Volume:
Hmmm this is an interesting one. I generally stop once I detect tails as I don't generally care enough about them to keep and put in a feints run. ABV is generally around 93%. My last run I ran deeper than I usually would have (So I could air and confirm) Last run was around 2.8 litres before I shut down, this include fores. At this point, 3 sight glasses were fogged (And had been for a couple jars) and ABV was mid-high 80's and output was very slow. At what point do you generally shut down?

I collect in 250ml jars and I think the last 4-5 jars were tails. I'd class the first 2 as heads if I remember correctly. I'd be happy to do another batch up and just run it until it stops and figure out overall volume if you guys think it would be a good to know.

Wash Parameters:
Interestingly enough I've considered water to be a factor as bayshine mentioned. I've moved house recently however it was in the same suburb. My last house had an undersink filter I used to fill fermenter, my new house as a whole house filter which consists of a particle filter and a carbon filter I believe. Not sure if this would cause issues.

I adjust 5.5PH, I've used DAP, Salts, etc... On and off, don't really feel it makes much a difference.

Wash Types:
I've tried TPW and UJ is next on my list (Then AG!) It might be worth noting my results seem consistent between 5 Plates + Packed and 4 plate flavor. I'd like to add that DWWG is seriously my favorite drink as white dog. I'd brush my teeth with it if I could 8-}

Leaks:
I've checked and checked. I had a split plate seal and liquid actually leaked out. I thought I was on a win, bought all new seals but no dice. Can you see / hear leaks? I've running a mirror around the clamps to see if it fogs up, dry as a nuns kiss every time. Clamps and SSG are nice and tight (The way we all like it) :clap:

Once again all your help is appreciated!

[JayBee]

Do you have your fermentors sitting in the sun? Had a mate do a TPW but had fermentors outside in the sun light, when we ran it though the still had wierd running temps and takeoff % dropped from 94 to 80 in first 45mins, where it normally stays constant 93-94% for the whole run. Only got 1 litre out of it were I normally get 4ish of hearts.

[timboss]

No they don't see any direct sunlight mate. They sit inside with a towel around them!

[Undertaker]

hearts go cloudy when diluting...

Always add alcohol to water not vice versa. Cant remenber the chemistry exactly but something to do with the reaction that occurs and heat that is generated (on a molecular level) when the ratio of alcohol to water is high. Whereas if you add alcohjol to water that reaction doesnt occur because the water % is always higher.
*disclaimer* Im not a physicist

Cheers Phil

[timboss]

Hi Guys

So here is my current plan for my next run:

1. I'm going to use different water for the ferment... Pain in the arse, but worth a crack.
2. I'm going to wrap plumbers take around all the tri-clamp joins before having putting the tri-clamp on. Would this take care of any leaks?

On a side note, how much PC water flow is required? I usually run quite slow, maybe a litre or 2 a minute... The PC always remains cool to the touch and the output probably lukewarm.

Cheers
Tim

[Sam.]

Why try different water if your washes are at 990? They are obviously fermenting out completely if this is the case.

If you can't detect any leaks why add plumbing tape to the joins? The seal between the sections is what seals it and the tri clamp merely applies the pressure to do it.

Your yield firgures don't look that bad.

The only issue I see is that your hearts are going cloudy. Do you clean your still between runs? Also dilution water should be pure, use spring water if your normal source is dodgy.

hearts go cloudy when diluting...

Always add alcohol to water not vice versa. Cant remenber the chemistry exactly but something to do with the reaction that occurs and heat that is generated (on a molecular level) when the ratio of alcohol to water is high. Whereas if you add alcohjol to water that reaction doesnt occur because the water % is always higher.
*disclaimer* Im not a physicist

Cheers Phil

I call horseshit on this as well I add the alcohol to water all the time with no ill effect. Heat is generated when the two are mixed but this has bugger all effect apart from maybe making your alcometer read slightly higher. ;-)

[scythe]

The issue is with mixing a water and an acid.
ALWAYS add acid to water.
Not the other way around.

By adding acid to water it dilutes instantly.
Adding water to acid will react violently as the full strength acid boils the water due to exothermic reaction and there is a possibility of it boiling and splashing acid on you.

[Whiskyaugogo]

The issue is with mixing a water and an acid.
ALWAYS add acid to water.
Not the other way around.

By adding acid to water it dilutes instantly.
Adding water to acid will react violently as the full strength acid boils the water due to exothermic reaction and there is a possibility of it boiling and splashing acid on you.

I could be wrong but I don't think Ethanol is an acid?

[scythe]

Indeed it is not.

I was more correcting phil and backing up Sam than stating the ethanol is an acid.

[timboss]

Why try different water if your washes are at 990? They are obviously fermenting out completely if this is the case.

If you can't detect any leaks why add plumbing tape to the joins? The seal between the sections is what seals it and the tri clamp merely applies the pressure to do it.

I see you're point mate, but I'm more a "why not" over a "why" person, and at this rate if I keep doing what I always do then the result will just keep being the same. I think I should be getting more than a litre of drinkable product from 45+litre 10% wash. That tells me I'm doing something wrong somewhere a long the line.

Just because I can't detected a leak doesn't mean there isn't one, just because I think everything is in order it doesn't mean so either.. That's why I'm just trying to break the norm and change things up, regardless i fit's unnecessary.