Neutraliser ABV

[r1zzla]

Got my shiny new Neutraliser a few months ago, I've done 3 or 4 gens of CFW,WBAB,BWKO,& Rum all on 4 plates - all is good with the world.

But when I try to run it with 5 plates and the packed section to get a neutral, the ABV starts a litle low at 93% then starts to gradually dercrease down to 85% or so before the wet cardboard smell of tails becomes pronounced. Reading on this forum, I was expecting 94-95% all the way into tails.

I did call Allan, he suggested that I repack the column, which I've done, I now have 2.6kg of copper in 4 'sausages' very tightly wedged in.

I've been over it with a mirror - no leaks. I've tried several washes (TPW,FFV & Kale) same results. The estimated yield and the resulting yield seem to be about right.
Prior to todays run the still was stripped down and cleaned, shiny copper and stainless.

Todays run of 57L of Kale (OG1065,FG995) @ 9% should have given me around 4.9L@100%.Brought to boil with 2 x 2400W, then 1x2400w.
After 200ml of FS, I collected in 16 x 250ml jars @ 1.8L/hr (ABV from 93 -->85%) then stripped to 20%, RC off and 3600W
The cooling water went from 15 - 17.5degC.
Total collected (including 3L of tails at 32%) at 100% ABV=4.7L, so pretty close to what was expected.

abv.png

output.png

Previous neutral washes have been similar, but if I try to run at 2L/hour, the same thing happens with the ABV but there's definate smearing in the distillate.

Any one got any ideas on what I'm doing wrong ?

[woodduck]

A couple of things to check, is maybe your still is on a lean and the distillate is running down the side wall instead of through the packing? Only other explanation I can think of is not enough reflux. Either from passive reflux from running oitside, too fast a take of rate (although that sounds ok) or not enough power. Can you control one of your elements? If so try running both but turn one right down and see if you can get more reflux coming back through the plates.

[r1zzla]

woodduck
Just been down to the shed ... it's a straight as i can get it - 1mm off vertical from top to bottom of column. Run was in the shed, so no passive reflux? avg takeoff rate was 1.8l/hr (not including FS 200ml in 45mins). I can control one element with SSR and the other via switches 0/1200/2400w - so i'll try your suggestion of a bit more power and reflux (keeping takeof rate at 1.8-2l/hr) - just have to wait for another wash to finish.

[woodduck]

Everything sounds ok :think:

I found my bubbler doesn't make as good a neutral as my old boka but it is a hell of a lot faster :)) . I found I needed an extra plate and more power to get the % up, so I now run 6 plates and packed section at around 3000-3600w depending on how it’s running at the time. I usually take off at around 2Lph at 95%. It will sit on that the whole run untill it jumps a % or 2 then I strip the rest. You will definitely see more reflux pouring out the down comer when you bump the power up.

[r1zzla]

thanks for the help woodduck, i was thinking of adding another plate - but will need to add a 'pop top' in the shed roof to fit it in.

[hillzabilly]

I like ta strip neutral wash's until I have enough for a full run @40% abv or slightly less ,and use 3600wt and collect at around 2-2.5lt per hour,the stratergy is that your still can take a 40% abv wash ta 95%abv a lot easier than 8-10%abv ta 95%abv,and the other possibility is if ya useing 2inch bubble caps not the 1inch caps ,they will not refine as well as the 1inch ones and your still will struggle ta hit the magic 95%abv mark,I used ta overfocus on getting 95% sometimes but flavour and smell are more important ,and if your alcometer is a little off you will allways be chaseing ya tail like a hound type dog thinking something is wrong,FSD recommend 40% wash on their website if my memory serves me well.Was there a gurgleing noise comeing from ya packed section when running. ? cheers hillzabilly ;-)

[r1zzla]

hillzabilly - i have plenty of feints, I'll try 30L @ 40%, upping the power as you and woodduck suggested. I was keeping it at 2400w following Macs 'how to for bubblers' guide. I'm using the 1" FSD bubblecaps (http://www.5stardistilling.net/bubble-plate-4/) that came as standard with the Neutraliser.
The alcometer seems OK, it gives the same reading as my refractometer.

Gurgling noises ? - no, should there be ?

[bluc]

Wooduck you reakon the extra plates are needed because of the extra power you use? (as opposed to 2400w)

[Wobblyboot]

I did call Allan, he suggested that I repack the column, which I've done, I now have 2.6kg of copper in 4 'sausages' very tightly wedged in?

Too tightly wedged in? Does it surge?

[woodduck]

Wooduck you reakon the extra plates are needed because of the extra power you use? (as opposed to 2400w)

I don't recon, I used to do the same, 2400w day in day out. The product just wasn't quite good enough for me. after some thought and a few chats about it, more power= more reflux=more cycles=more chance for the packing to do it’s job. My take off rate doesn't change just the power input. I now leave my rc on full flow and use the power to push past it (I have a small rc btw). But be warned if you over do it I recon it can cause smearing, you'll have to find what that point is for your rig.

[r1zzla]

wobblybot - no surging.

[viking]

Hmmm this is similar to what I have been seeing on my last couple of runs. A slow decrease in ABV%. I couldn't find any leaks. I thought the elements might an issue, but I've swapped elements with no difference. Checked water flow - no problem. No lean on the column. Next step is the replace threading tape on condensers.

If you sort it out - let me know. I'm stumped too.

[Professor Green]

I'm still coming to grips with the foibles of my rig but I initially had the same issue and assumed I was running it too hard. Slowing the take off rate sorted that out for me. Around 1.5 litres per hour seems to be where mine wants to sit. I run 4 plates and a packed section due to height restrictions I the shed and Allan's recommendation was to run with a stripped wash for best results with that configuration.

Not much help really!

Cheers,
Prof. Green.

[Sam.]

Providing there are no leaks and your packing is in the "not too tight, not too loose" column then it is all about finding the "sweet spot" between power input, RC flow and off take rate. Things such as running on gas, varying ambient temps, wind/drafts and boiler volume and ABV will affect repeatability.

In other words, once you have your process and rig dialled in you should be set, it's just finding the balance. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[hillzabilly]

hillzabilly - i have plenty of feints, I'll try 30L @ 40%, upping the power as you and woodduck suggested. I was keeping it at 2400w following Macs 'how to for bubblers' guide. I'm using the 1" FSD bubblecaps (http://www.5stardistilling.net/bubble-plate-4/) that came as standard with the Neutraliser.
The alcometer seems OK, it gives the same reading as my refractometer.

Gurgling noises ? - no, should there be ?

If there is its a sighn of ya packed section may be flooding,wich is no good and dangerouse as pressure builds then ya get a couple of liters exiting ya still violently,for me the neutralizer has about 1-2lts of alcohol liquid circlelateing to get refinement ,with a low % wash it takes longer for the still to do its job of refineing as your takeing it out quicker than it can be replaced it ,you see that at the end of a run as your sight glasses fog from the bottom up and the flow from the down comers slows also from the bottom up,this is what I call the water chaseing the alcohol out of the still,more power can speed the process but will be an extra load to cooling as well,its more likely ta help with low % wash not a high 40% run,If your spirit is less than 20'c exiting the still as is likely this time of year with temp correction you could gain a couple of %abv too.cheers hillzabilly ;-)

[r1zzla]

hillzabilly - just looked at my run notes - the 1st plate didn't fog until 3/4 of the way through,around jar 13, the ABV was <90% by then. Maximum distillate temp was 19.9degC

[bayshine]

I had similar problems with my 4" neutraliser and found I just need a bit more power, I ran 1x 2400w plus 1x1200w and found the sweet spot :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[hillzabilly]

Your product ouput speed looks a bit up and down,and the coolant flow would normaly need to be increased slightly thru the run not decreased to maintain your %abv and your product flow will decrease as a result,the head temp of mine stays static 3/4 of the run only changeing and increaseing towards the end of a run,some use needle valves on the RC for better adjustment of coolant flow and resulting product flow if ya had trouble getting a consistentflow rate,wich can be less fidely with more power strangely ,It took me a year with mine befor I felt confortable with it .cheers hillzabilly ;-)

[r1zzla]

Professor Green wrote:
I run 4 plates and a packed section due to height restrictions I the shed and Allan's recommendation was to run with a stripped wash for best results with that configuration.

Stripping with a neutraliser - my understanding of stripping with a neutraliser is turn the RC coolant off and up the power without flooding the plates or raising the distillate temp too high. Taking everything down to 20%ABV. Sound good ?

[r1zzla]

hillzabilly - I use a ' 0.2-2LMP Water Liquid Flow Meter ' to control the RC, the flow rate is pretty constant, however, this run I was trying to keep the takeoff rate at around 1.8L/hr adjusting the RC flow rate at each jar change to accomplish this whilst keeping power at 2400w. In previous runs I've tried adjusting power and/or RC flow rate, but what ever I do the ABV starts dropping. If I keep the RC flowrate constant then both the ABV and the takeoff rate will drop throughout the run.