Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Perforated & bubble cap plated columns

Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby coffe addict » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:04 am

The Stig wrote:
coffe addict wrote:
Lowie wrote:No point stripping prior to running a spirit run

That's not my experience, sure what you end up with will be drinkable but certainly not neutral. Ymmv

It depends on the wash, a weet-bix wash run nice and slow will be a great sipping vodka after a single run :handgestures-thumbupleft:

The thread name is making neutrals with bubblers!
A wheat vodka is very good also in a single run but it's not a neutral.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby crow » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:28 am

coffe addict wrote:
Lowie wrote:No point stripping prior to running a spirit run

That's not my experience, sure what you end up with will be drinkable but certainly not neutral. Ymmv

Correct , no point inferred there is no tangible benefit and that simply isn't true. You do not have to strip and depending how you run the wash and how clean it is you may end up with a fairly good neutral but stripping will always improve it. I do neutral with 5 plates and a 600 mm scoria packed section just below the RC, copper mesh may work even better but scoria is one hell of a lot cheaper. The thing to remember is in this configuration you are running an unvalved very short CM reflux still with the plates acting as doublers so you need to run it more like a CM reflux still to get the optimum results. This would be virtually impossible with say an effective 500mm of packing in a normal CM with an unrestricted take off but as the plates are scrubbing the vapour up prior to delivery to the packed section it is not only doable but with the right ratio of reflux to vapour speed it will out perform most CM stills and should get you azeotropic ethanol no worries :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Jimmy. » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:16 pm

Awesome thank you all for the info!

This is the first time I have heard of the lava rock?

Would running a second RC enable better control over the system as it also increases the total column?

So overall, 5 plates, packed column with copper (could also add lava rock and SS scrubbers?)
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby db1979 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:29 pm

Jimmy. wrote:Would running a second RC enable better control over the system as it also increases the total column?

I guess it's possible to run a second RC if you had one above the packed section and the second between the plates and packed section. You'd want to be running your cooling water flat out on the bottom RC and push past it with heat from the boiler, top RC you'd want to simply adjust coolant flow. I reckon it'd take a long time for the column to equilibrate and it'd be more fiddly than running a single RC. I don't think there'd be any actual benefit. A column works on having a temperature gradient from the boiler all the way up to the RC, having a second RC in between would probably be pretty pointless just for this reason.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby crow » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:35 am

If you want to go that direction maybe look into an inline thumper
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=6824&start=20
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Jimmy. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:41 pm

Cheers Crow

Probably will make it way too tall for most people!

a 500mm packed section looks the best with 6 plates for bang for buck.
I have searched and there does not seem to be a recommended amount of copper mesh for 500mm of extension tubing (5 star does not have it either)

I have started to source random bits to make a bubbler :)
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Andrew » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:21 pm

1kg rolled up nicely will slip into the 4” section perfectly.
I normally tell people that 1 x 1kg roll is enough then fill the other 400mm with your choice of packing.
The 500mm section will take 5kg if you want to go all copper but I think it’s over kill
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Jimmy. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:33 pm

Andrew wrote:1kg rolled up nicely will slip into the 4” section perfectly.
I normally tell people that 1 x 1kg roll is enough then fill the other 400mm with your choice of packing.
The 500mm section will take 5kg if you want to go all copper but I think it’s over kill
Cheers


Cheers Andrew!
that's exactly what I was looking to hear (I have a cart already at 5 star just waiting on some info and possibly a keg before I hit order!)

Is there a need for more packing material?? wont filling all 500mm increase the chances of it puking?
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Andrew » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:25 pm

Yes the whole thing needs to be filled with “something”
Search for scoria or Bunnings stainless scrubbers
Different people use different things, I personally use the Bunnings stuff.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Jimmy. » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:06 am

Just arrived Andrew cheers!

1kg looks like a lot to be jammed in the bottom of the 500mm section, it doesn't end up too tightly packed as 1 roll?
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Andrew » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:58 am

Jimmy. wrote:Just arrived Andrew cheers!

1kg looks like a lot to be jammed in the bottom of the 500mm section, it doesn't end up too tightly packed as 1 roll?

Another customer from here said the same thing and ended up with about 750 in the bottom and the rest in the top and scoria between :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Jimmy. » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:16 pm

How loose do you pack it into the bottom of the column?
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Rock » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:29 am

Jimmy. wrote:How loose do you pack it into the bottom of the column?


My roll fits quite snuggly, but when i turn the section upside down i need to thrust it up and down then it slides out. I then use 3 more lighter packed rolls to fill the balance of the packed section, I will be try the ss scrubbers when i go past bunnings next.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Ned » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:27 am

I packed scoria between the copper 750g in the bottom (found it difficult to get 1kg) :angry-banghead: and 500g in the top.
Scoria from bunnings was $6.50 for 20kg.
Had to smash it in half for about 10mm. Used the half pieces and some small ones as well.
Cleaned it, (That really took some effort to get the dirt out), but got there in the finish.
Not too sure of the volume or weight of the scoria. I measure when I need to clean it, so that I can make plenty of reserve supplies.
I got 93 to 94% on my first run with the bubbler (4 plates and 500mm packed section) using TPW.
I thought it was a bloody good effort. :clap: and worth the pain of smashing and cleaning the scoria.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Brendan » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:20 am

Just to add to everybody else's additions, I make neutrals with 6 plates (all that I have) + an additional section on top filled with copper mesh which sit under the RC (as shown in my avatar, actually). I run several stripping runs (usually 3) in pot still configuration, and combine them into a spirit run in the setup mentioned.

Just for fun I also run it through a stainless steel carbon filter that I bought years ago (ie. not that brew shop carbon fines crap, but a real setup with the product dripping through a carbon medium), probably too neutral but no one argues that it's not a neutral that's for sure!!
Last edited by Brendan on Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby RC Al » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:03 am

Hey Brendan, you're obviously have good gear and pretty experienced, what other run strategies have you done to get to where you are?
Anything like strip, spirit & then hearts run?
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Yurugaboy » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:42 pm

Hi,
I use the copper mesh in the gin caddy above the RC for the spirit run using 5 plates and a full on RC using power control.
For the strip runs ( a must) I break it down to NO plates and NO RC in pot mode comes out around 42%.

Put 2 x 45 litres washes through and then do a spirit run- as above . Have about 30 litres total at 30% and then take off fores and heads. Take a bit of hearts Vodka and then add botanicals for remainder of run.

Dont waste botanicals on heads.

This is simple and repeatable. Spirit runs starts around 92% and stops around 85% taking at 2.5-3 litres per hour.

So the FSD modular bubbler is worth every cent.very adaptable.

Good brewing.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby scythe » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:47 pm

You should only do a Gin run with hearts, not a wash or low wines.
Some flavours don't come through untill lower %ABV (iirc its is Rose at about 20%) and you want to use them, so by using only hearts you can collect and drink these flavours without fear of manky off flavours or other unwanted fussel oils.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby MaKa » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:52 pm

With respect to packing you want something that has a high surface area and is chemically stable. The surface area allows for the vapour to condense. My first still had marbles in it, but I wouldn't recommend this as there are so many products with a higher surface area to weight ratio. In my current still I use copper mesh. You don't want packing that will react with the alcohol vapour.

Ideally look at ceramic, silica, copper, stainless steel etc. materials.
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Re: Making neutrals with bubblers - packed columns

Postby Rolls912 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:37 pm

Brendan wrote:Just to add to everybody else's additions, I make neutrals with 6 plates (all that I have) + an additional section on top filled with copper mesh which sit under the RC (as shown in my avatar, actually). I run several stripping runs (usually 3) in pot still configuration, and combine them into a spirit run in the setup mentioned.

Just for fun I also run it through a stainless steel carbon filter that I bought years ago (ie. not that brew shop carbon fines crap, but a real setup with the product dripping through a carbon medium), probably too neutral but no one argues that it's not a neutral that's for sure!!


Could you post a pic of the SS filter.... now I’m curious. :-B
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