design progression

by **bt1** » Fri May 24, 2013 8:51 pm

Howdy,

I've a very clear vision of what my current build(number 4 for plater) will look like but i'm seeking your views in case there's something I've overlooked in my isolation thinking stage. I want a fast, grain still of good abv and clean spirit with plenty of a good quality wash flavour carried over.

Dink prefs are Irish, Rye and grain/sugar bourbon styles with adjuncts especially that rather tasty DME.

I trust a 6 plate bubbler of any design to give the abv needed and cleaner spirit without too much more to say. So it's a six plater....again.

It will be another solid plate not plate tree to reduce knockback and column wall natural reflux.

So all good so far no biggies to consider

here's a few others however...

Current glass still has less space between plates. My understanding being the lower the height between plates, the more flavour carries over. Ideally I'd like to get under square, with say 90mm height for a 100mm/4" design.

Liquid bath levels where reduced from the first still at 25mm more typical for a bubbler to 15mm reducing separation as vapour gets less mixing on lower filled plate. I'm wanting to go to 1cm.

I'm planning a 100mm/4" bend into the same sized shotty for a PC ...could be a little less restrictive...

A 154mm/6" 200lt boiler opening with short reduction cone to 100mm column.

Downcomers upgrade to 25.4mm/1" to cope

Employ the services of the Mongolian burners.

Top plate drain so I can pull off the Fores while the rest of the still equalises...posted re this earlier as an observation on the glasser...

http://aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=3764

Realistically I'm expecting a vapour speed improvement with the above mods, carrying more wash flavour which implies more attention to AG washes, providing a good take off rate.

that's about it.. speak now or I start cutting copper real soon.

bt1

by **MacStill** » Fri May 24, 2013 9:28 pm

Current glass still has less space between plates. My understanding being the lower the height between plates, the more flavour carries over. Ideally I'd like to get under square, with say 90mm height for a 100mm/4" design.

Never heard of or experienced this before, how do you think a larger vapour area between plates effects flavour ? I strongly disagree with this line of thought.

I trust a 6 plate bubbler of any design to give the abv needed and cleaner spirit without too much more to say. So it's a six plater....again.

I reckon from experience your scrubbing flavour here, you want good flavour right ?

From experience I reckon 4 plates is perfect for flavour at speed with a bright crisp product at 92ish % ABV, with 6 plates you'll gain a point in ABV while sacrificing flavour....

1" DC is not going to run quicker, the 3/4" already provides enough room to prevent flooding & provides more than enough area for reflux return in any 4" column, but if you want an effective DC for big heat input you'll need to look at the cup/trap/thingamajig to prevent blow by, rendering the DC useless and therefore flooding the column.

Still on DC's at this point, I reckon (again from experience) that the size of the point of overflow into the DC is more important than the size of the DC tube below, you want the easy way out for liquid while making it harder for vapour to get through the DC..... my FSD Mac 4 has a 3/4" overflow point & 1/2" dropper into a 3/4" cup that can be overwhelmed at 3600w. so in this case bigger aint always better.

OK that'll do for now, it took 10 minutes of thinking and typing to post this and I'm supposed to be having the night off getting pissed :laughing-rolling:

PM me bt1 and I'll give you my phone number, my thoughts come across much better when not in text :handgestures-thumbupleft:

by **SBB** » Fri May 24, 2013 9:47 pm

Whats wrong with a 4 plater using pretty standard specs regarding bath depth ect??
I dont see a need for 6 plates, it looks to me like a heap of rooting around for little gain

by **Linno** » Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 pm

bt1 wrote:Howdy,
I trust a 6 plate bubbler of any design to give the abv needed and cleaner spirit without too much more to say. So it's a six plater....again.

carrying more wash flavour which implies more attention to AG washes, providing a good take off rate.

bt1

hey bt

cudos for taking on another build and good luck :handgestures-thumbupleft: . i am no pro on building but have done a lot of reading on design and seen in the flesh a few progressive builds also run the FSD bubbler plenty

i am curious about the above to comments you made regarding ABV and Flavour.

so far as the 'ABV needed' comment - i have 4 plates my staring ABV is 94% but from multiple runs i find that my hearts colection off a rum or BWKO are collected between 88-91%. cant see this being an issue with whatever you build.

and so the second bit about 'carrying more wash flavour' tells me that you may not get what u are looking for with 6 plates, I dont see how 6 plates will help with more flavour over less plates and think that even 3-6 plates has little effect on your ability to carry the desired ABV from your comment, you could maybe use less plates and adjust the take off rate to set your desired ABV and in away maybe the flavour.

probly what Mac already said but this is how understood your post :handgestures-thumbupleft:

posted at the same time as SBB

by **emptyglass** » Fri May 24, 2013 10:33 pm

bt1 wrote:Current glass still has less space between plates. My understanding being the lower the height between plates, the more flavour carries over. Ideally I'd like to get under square, with say 90mm height for a 100mm/4" design.

Liquid bath levels where reduced from the first still at 25mm more typical for a bubbler to 15mm reducing separation as vapour gets less mixing on lower filled plate. I'm wanting to go to 1cm.bt1

The height between plates is not a function of diameter, more a function of gravity. If you get too close, you will get entrainment. The space does stuff, its not something to be avoided. It lets all the goodies sort themselfs out before moving to the next stage. The liquid bath mixes the show up. The space sorts it out.
There are big diameter plated columns that run close plate spacing, but they look way under square. It not due to diameter, you need that much space for gravity to affect the vapor, and stop liquid from entering the next plate.

Either way the solid plates will help. Don't go too big on the downcomer diameter, its a waste of functional plate space.

by **MacStill** » Fri May 24, 2013 11:32 pm

if you're pushing flavours through a bath, then how does the space between the 2 baths effect flavour? 8-}

Sure if the lower plate is splashing on the next it's no good, but this crap about the vapour chamber between makes no sense :roll:

by **emptyglass** » Sat May 25, 2013 12:27 am

MacStill wrote:if you're pushing flavours through a bath, then how does the space between the 2 baths effect flavour? 8-}

Sure if the lower plate is splashing on the next it's no good, but this crap about the vapour chamber between makes no sense :roll:

In my imagination, while the ammount of spirit on a plate is scrubbing the next bit of upcoming vapor, the bit coming up is vapor. This vapor needs a place to be, to sort itself out and let the heavier compounds drop out. To me, this dosn't happen in the bath of liquid.
Might explain part of the reason bubble caps and perf plates perform so similar.
?

by **SBB** » Sat May 25, 2013 1:06 am

Geeze this is getting kinda complex now, you could be right EG, though I always imagined that happened on the next plate due to lower temp, gravity and a number of other things,or a combination of all of the above.....just my thoughts after far to many Rums.

by **crow** » Sat May 25, 2013 1:26 am

Ok well It was my understanding that all plated stills get some entrainment, that is that the rising vapor carries with it tiny droplets (not just vapor but some steam as well) and the amount of entrainment will directly effect the carry over flavor more or less regardless of the ABV , which of cause effects the flavor in the way we all understand works with all stills. It was my understanding that this entrainment would be effected by two things, vapor speed verses the distance between baths :think: but sometimes my understanding ain't right

by **bt1** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:13 am

Howdy,

Good to have this chat...I really did over look less plates...good point ...will reduce to 4/5. You won't get this sort of open exchange of views on any other forum without being yelled at or abused and for that I'm extremely grateful...in advance thanks all for your time and efforts and positive contributions.

On lowering the bath levels when upcoming vapour phase changes to liquid and remixes as it bubbles through the bath some water and heavier parts from the up coming vapours is left behind in the liquid on that plate. hence we see slightly different mixes on each plate.
some alcohol in the liquid is turned to vapours and carried to the next plate but leaves a 'lighter" cleaner mix than the bath is came from, otherwise it won't break free. The lower the bath level the less opportunity to do this phase change/remix as bath becomes more excited due to spacing and inputs. I reckon we all go with this idea so far yes?

On the flavour plate spacing discussion point my understanding is the same as crows as EG explained it. From a lot of reading and a few library docos, MR's comments on design and plate spacing etc. Past the point where liquid splashing would occur there's must be a space where vapour either falls back due to heavier content(water mainly) or continues upward...unless the column is over powered and it all makes the jump....flooding.

Design idea then is to reduce spacing to take advantage deliberately of this entrainment. Worst case you could consider it induced smearing or reducing separation, although there's enough of that happening in 4 plus plate designs by all accounts.

If that's the case and I'm still not 100% on this, then the reverse must apply. Larger spacings well over column square ie 125mm on 100mm/4" should induce better separation and have an impact. Trouble is for mine the original bubbler used 125mm spacing and I can't for the F&*king life of me taste any difference.... so I'm left in some doubt, or we've hit a point that truly doesn't impact us at 4' diameters and applies to the larger commercial beasts.

Given this new still will be modular glass again it's no biggy to change over glass segments later(vary plate spacing)...might just be a case of built it and see.

Thoughts?

bt1

by **MacStill** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:22 am

...used plate spacings from 100mm to 200mm with no difference in flavours :roll:

Same recipes for years through these rigs on both perforated and bubble caps, yeah ok maybe I'm wrong again, dont care 8-}

I'll but out now you guys dont need my input, have fun :handgestures-thumbupleft:

by **Petulance** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:00 am

Does all this mean that the more plates present in the column, the neutraller (?) the output will be?

If I change from 6 plates to 10 plates, will the neutral spirit produced be tasteably (?) different? Or am I adding extra processing for no return?

If there's no difference, why would anyone want more than 6 plates? Commercial distilleries seem to have dozens of plated sections. Granted, they are processing en masse, but wouldn't they end up with totally neutral spirit in the end?

Or do I have no idea about this whole thing? That's probably the answer, isn't it?

by **Dominator** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:34 am

From what I understand, which is not a lot, more plates increases your ABV. The higher you push your ABV, purer your spirit will be, which results in less flavor.

Perhaps by having more plates you can inject more heat to get the same level flavor and ABV with a faster take off rate.

by **punchy21** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:36 pm

Petulance wrote:Does all this mean that the more plates present in the column, the neutraller (?) the output will be?

If I change from 6 plates to 10 plates, will the neutral spirit produced be tasteably (?) different? Or am I adding extra processing for no return?

If there's no difference, why would anyone want more than 6 plates? Commercial distilleries seem to have dozens of plated sections. Granted, they are processing en masse, but wouldn't they end up with totally neutral spirit in the end?

Or do I have no idea about this whole thing? That's probably the answer, isn't it?

Have a read through this thread Petulance, some good info, advice, experienced opinions... :handgestures-thumbupleft:

by **Petulance** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:06 pm

So what's the answer, Punchy? More or less plates? Or just try it? Rather expensive trial though...

by **punchy21** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:11 pm

More plates, less flavour... How many are required? Depends on lots of things, your taste, wash type, running speed...

I reckon you'll have enough plates soon to tell me more :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I just realised i forgot to add the link to the thread FFS! :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

Here it is - viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1700