Plate spacing, thickness and Dc's

[Dmnted]

Hi all,

Sorry for the essay to follow :-B

I'm about to commence my first build with a 4", 5 plate modular perf bubbler with an add on packed section for vodka.
I have all the goodies apart from some 1.6mm flat sheet for plates, a few reducers and a parrot (I cant be bothered building a parrot).

Before I start cutiing I have a number of things I'd like to confirm so I dont have to do things twice !

I have expandon stainless ferrules to solder on over the 4" column with 3" sight glasses.
I will be sitting the perf plates in between the joins of each modular section, to allow for easy cleaning and alingment as well as less soldering which is a bonus.
Now I know that most peope use a 100 - 120mm plate spacing, with the same distance between the boiler and first plate. Will 150mm make a difference? Space with expandon ferrules is limited?
I would assume not if they are all even?

I have a number of copper sheets which are about 0.9mm thick with dimensions of 300x400mm for plates but think I need to go up to 1.6mm. Any advise on minimum plate thickness?

As for DC's, I'm going with 3/4" however I'm a little confused as to whether a 1" inch cup soldered to the plate below is better to obtain a fluid lock (weir system).
I was thinking a DC height above the plate of 20mm, dropping down into a 1" cup (cup soldered to the plate below)
eg: cup 1" diameter and 20mm height soldered onto plate with downcomer "falling" from above, about 10mm into the cup below to form a fluid lock.
Any advantage to this method? or should I simplify the build by dropping the DC to within say 10mm of the plate below and the distilate on the plate forms the fluid lock?

I'm also looking at a 4" diameter by 5 inch refulx condensor with 7 x 3/4" tubes
Also product condensor of 2.5" diameter by 23" long with 4 x 3/4 inch tubes.
Packed section for vodka will be 4"diameter by 6".

Looking at starting this build this weekend so feedback and advise greatly appreciated!
Obviously a build thread will follow ;-)

Cherrs everyone!

[tickle]

You are on a good track! PC and RC will be fine. Dont sweat the plate thickness too much, they just hold a small amount of fluid, not much weight. For the liquid trap, either will work. EG has a real nice system where the dc's are brought down to the plate below it, with an angle cut on it to maintain a sufficient opening. Search around, there are pics somewhere :eusa-think: I use either 1-1/4" or 1" caps on my down commers. Why? Cause I always did :teasing-neener: I like watching it drip and splash down. But, the beni to the no cup method is no leftover fluid trapped, it all drains away nicely. NOTE that the bottom plate does need a trap. What would I do if I wasn't set in my ways? I think the trapless setup. Its elegant, simple, and I think the drain down feature is slick. My $.02.

[Brendan]

Mate, you've got a fairly solid plan there.

The 150mm spacing is not a problem...as Mac has said to me before, it's just a larger void to fill with vapour...My top plate to the RC above it has a gap of about 250mm, and works just fine.

As Linny found out the hard way, if you're going to make a 2.5" PC, you won't be able to make it modular as you'll be hard pressed getting 2.5" tri-clamp fittings...just a thought, will have to be all soldered together onto your 180 bend, or if you want modular (which is recommend), go to 2", it's more than sufficient at 500mm long.

Also, I would go a lot longer on your packed section. Mine is 500mm above a 6 plate column, and still needs a double distillation to make a good vodka...the key to a packed section is height, and 6 inches just won't cut it (that's what the girls say anyway ;-) )

For copper sheet, I'm sure you've read that most just cut some pipe long ways and flatten it out...I used 3" pipe, but if you remember your maths from school (circumference=diameter*Pi) a 2" pipe is enough for 4" plates.

Good luck with the build mate! :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[bt1]

Howdy,

yep you got it about nailed , just a few thoughts.

No fan of cupless downcomers cos until you have a fluid bath on a plate its an expressway for vapour through your still. I reckon also until bath on plate is achieved rapidly rising vapour via open downcomer roots around with fores on top plate as "express" vapour makes it's way to the to the top plate/RC cool zone and then suddenly collapses...top plate is stressed imho.

In the glasser u can see some plates take way longer to get a stabilised bath on them depending on how hard you drive it. On the other end of your run as plates dry out its again an expressway for by then lower quality vapour to the next plate(s).

As an option nothing wrong with a downcomer being 20 -30mm below plate and cap it rather than extend down to next plate. see no advantage in going to next plate. A shorter one gets the cap off the plate increasing perf hole real estate...far more valuable I reckon.

If you have a grinder and silver solder, slice up some 1" tube use scrap as base silver solder on= saves buying caps.

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bt1

[Bushy]

All of these will work well. On my tree the cups are just a bit of 1" pipe cut and sitting loose on the plates

2013-03-17_07-03-29_20.jpg

Shit photo, but those cups can slide up and down the downcomers. This way you don't have fluid trapped after the run and during the run they work like a soldered cup.
Just my two cents

[Dmnted]

Thanks all!
I really do appreciate the advice and encouragement ! :-D

Tickle, I finally found some 2mm thick plate today after about 20 phone calls.
I need a minimum of 1.6mm for the plates because a mate is making the plates in a fandangled machine at his work.
I should of probably mentioned that prior but had a brain fart after a few vodkas last night :oops

Brendan, all good for the 2.5" modular product condensor mate.
Found triclamps for $10.50 and ferrules where I got my expandon ferrules. http://www.geordi.com.au/Products19d.htm
I am trying to avoid bashing out a copper plate to make htem flat because I am lazy ;-)
I'm really happy a 150mm plate spacing isn't an issue!
Would have been super tight otherwise

I thought the packed vodka section may be way too small. I only have a 2.1meter height to run the column including the boiler.
Don't think the mr's is too keen with me cutting a hole in the floorboards so I'll make it as big as what I can fit.

I do like the look and ease of not having a cap on the downcomer however, it looks like the main consensus is to run a cap to avoid a quick route up for the vapour.

BT1, All makes sense mate! I have no experience with soldering so I might try a few options in the end.
Extra real estate sounds good.

Bushy, do the loose one inch "cups" make a heap of noise bouncing about when doing a run?
I like the idea of having the caps being able to drain.
I thought of having the cap soldered in place but, have a number of 1.5mm drain holes around the side of the cap?

I gueuss in the end, all these options will work and it's just down to personal preference and ease of build.

[bt1]

Bloke,

2mm is dam good...very bloke~ish...1.6mm can get a bit soft after heat is applied. After several builds I'd only recommend soft soldering in downcomers...no weight issues and reduced heat stops the rest of the plate going soft cock as then annealed.

Yeh plate spacing is a wtf issue unless really over the top 150mm be fine.

Bath level on plates...if you want to squeeze in a tip for faster take off rates nothing wrong with dropping down comers to 15mm above plate...use this on the glasser and well happy. 25 - 20mm was a year ago consensus but there's a few around who say it makes no diff...other than take off could be (very subjective this...) slightly better.

Just note of caution before going at it, grab the two gaskets, ferules and plate and make sure tri clamp will take it all up...ie so you don't have to shave down tri clamps for an oversized bite...don't expect it will be an issue cos I'm near that config with 1.6mm and have no issues but check it none the less.

Condenser with 7 tubes x 3/4" will be fast at 150mm you could just keep it simple at that and never worry...personally I've got two builds using far smaller condensers or using tickles mid condenser take off idea so just in case you want to go to a super quick RC add in a mid height stub blank it off...if you never feel you need it your in front but nice to have...(depends on coolant feed really( separate to PC or post PC) but we've not chatted about that)

Work method...Rome was not f**king built in 1 day...really take your time, do it right and just bloody enjoy it, tunes on, get comfy, if it gets on top of you... walk away for break...cos building is a bloody delight never to be over looked.

Go you good thing!

cheers
bt1

[MacStill]

Bath level on plates...if you want to squeeze in a tip for faster take off rates nothing wrong with dropping down comers to 15mm above plate...use this on the glasser and well happy. 25 - 20mm was a year ago consensus but there's a few around who say it makes no diff...other than take off could be (very subjective this...) slightly better.

bt1

Can you explain your logic behind this ?

I've found it makes SFA difference to take off rates, yet it can impact on flavours ;-)

[MacStill]

If your after a real tip for faster take off rates go larger diameter.

If you want quicker response times on your RC go lower coolant volume, as in the original slayer Cupcake has from around 18 months ago :wtf:

These rigs are very forgiving in the way you build them, as long as you stick to the basic design principles it will be as fast and efficient as any other out there, despite what the brain surgeons say you'll not notice much difference, if any at all ;-)

[tickle]

Dont want to go too far off topic, but can you elaborate Mac? In terms of deeper or shallower bath depths and flovors. ..

There was an interisting article by flyingdutchman, take off rates are "most" heavily influencd by column diameter. Other factors too, for sure, but column diameter was the biggest.

[Dominator]

Is there a particular reason people have a 'J' cup on the bottom plate and not just a normal plate and cup setup?

[tickle]

Good question! I have done both, either works. IF..I were to speculate, I think the trap seal is deeper when I use two elbows than you would get with a cap. But, I have not found a difference in real world. We're not launching rockets, either works! One cap is cheaper than two elbows...guess how I make them these days.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Brendan]

Is there a particular reason people have a 'J' cup on the bottom plate and not just a normal plate and cup setup?

I did this mate...and there's no reason...works the same, probably holds a bit more liquid. I had just seen it on the designs where the downcomers where fixed to the plate below, which is why they would have done it with a j cup on the bottom. My cups are attached to the downcomer, but I still used the j cup on the bottom. There's no difference.

[Dmnted]

Cheers Bt1 and Mcstill

I'm leaning towards have the cap on the DC soldered to the DC rather than soldering to the plate below now.

Macstill, when you say DC height effects flavour, I assume the shorter DC has less flavour than a longer one?
Is it alot of difference?

[tickle]

Get anything done this weekend?

[Dominator]

Macstill, when you say DC height effects flavour, I assume the shorter DC has less flavour than a longer one?
Is it alot of difference?

I think he meant bath depth affects flavor. I assume a deeper bath would give more flavor in your final product.

[Dmnted]

Yep Dominator, but doesn't te height of the downcomer above the plate effect bath depth?

Tickle,What was achieved first weekend.

We first used a lathe to mill down the lenght of the expandon ferrules so they dont take up so much of the overall column length.

We then cut our 4" pipe down to 140mmm lengths using an industrial drop saw and cleaned up the ends with a 4' bore lathe.

A job was in the cnc machine so we couldn't mill the 3" sight glass holes in the 4" but that should be completed tomorrow.

I will create a build thread soon with photos :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Yummyrum]

Industrial drop saw ,bore lathe ,CNC mill . Fuck .I'm gealous :mrgreen: Illl just go change my hacksaw :violin: blade

Sounds like not only do you have the goods but know how to use them .Can't wait for the pics .Should be a first class unit :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Dmnted]

Cheers Yummy.
THread and pics here
http://aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4032