2" 4 plate solid bubbler

[WTDist]

Thought i would split this from my T500 mod. Not really anything like the T500 now.
This has been in the process for a while but im slow and mostly time poor.
Thought i would start this thread in case anyone wants to build a small bubbler and this would be some an up to date build. noticed bluc was showing interest :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Would like bigger but i have the parts now for this.
may work may not. nothing to loose at this point :))

I have a 970mm packed section of 2" im going to cut. depending on my PC outlet clearance on the boiler it will be between 320mm and 500mm. 320mm will give me 80mm depth between plates and will give me a larger paced section over 4 plates when i want neutrals. its also the height if i sit the downcomer cap on top of the bubble cap making it easier to get them in place and solder. Being 2" and having them all soldered in place will be a bitch to solder so this will help make it easier.

They are ruff bubble caps but should do the job. they are never going to be seen so who needs them looking awesome :))

Is as follows.
4 plates
1st downcomer cap is 80mm just in case. other three are 40mm made from 1"
bubble caps are 40mm high made from 1"
risers are 35mm
bottom 3 plates downcomer/bath depth is 25mm.
4th downcomer/bath depth is 20mm.
riser/downcomer is 1/2" wide.

plates are in order from left to right, 1 - 4

2015-11-18 10.49.36.jpg

RC is 100mm 2" with 5 1/2" tubes and PC is 500mm 2" with 5 1/2" tubes from my T500 mod.
boiler for the moment is 2kW T500 boiler.
power controller is built, just need to go and see a sparky to check my work.

I was thinking of getting it to boil and then keeping the RC water on a manageable limit and i will slowly increase power to over come the RC like the boys do with their inline thumpers.

Was thinking the 2" will need 1370W to power 4 plates but this is just on me fiddling around in excell with the differences in plate sizes and volumes.
I figure if 2.4kW is enough for 4" then the 2" will be much less considering that a 4" plate holds 75% more liquid on the same bath depth. as the diameter increases by 2" the bath depth increase percent decreases as you can see below from my screenshot. Would like if some 6" guys could inform me if this would seem close for theirs. not saying my excell spreadsheet is right or anything. just wanting to get an idea what power should be good for a 2" 4 plate :handgestures-thumbupleft:
The math i used for power was the power of the previous multiplied by 1+%increase. for the 2" its 75% less than the 4" approx.

screenshot of spreadsheet

excell 2.png

excel file

still.xlsx

amazing that a 2" with 4 plates (not taking out riser/downcomer volumes) is 205ml and a 6" has 1853ml over 4 plates. You can see why you need such a larger boiler to run a 6"

The boiler charge will be low wines from a 25L strip added to boiler then toped up to 25L line with another 25L wash. Not over filled though. This should make it close to a 40L wash charge with larger hearts cut, slightly higher ABV requiring less power (slightly) and taking a long time :))

Ill test it out and see how fast i can push it with this method. hoping i can get at least 1.2l/h to 1.5l/h :think:

as for neutrals it will be 4 plate section with 650mm paced section above. still got the 570mm section from my T500 also but dont know if it is needed. hope to have it completed by the end of the month as all i have to do is shape up the plates so they go inside the 2" (not quite right shape yet) cut my packed section and add 2 flanges and solder the plates in place.

[WTDist]

saw a problem in the excel file, fixed it here it is, column going down in red was wrong previously

fix up.png

still.xlsx

[bluc]

Interested for sure will keep an eye on this build cheers!! :-B

[WTDist]

damn another mistake.
might be 4 times less power for a 2" . 51ml compared to 205ml is 400% bigger so i dont think i can get away with 480W but we will see :think:

increase fix up.png

[maddogpearse]

that looks like a honking deep bath! i guess it's not, but it seems like it proportionally...

[bluc]

I wonder what makes the biggest impact depth of bath or distance between plates. :-B guessing bath depth.

[scythe]

Biggest impact on what?

flavour carry over?
speed?

There was a thread about it a while ago.
Deeper the bath depth the less flavour you get i think was the consensus
I think 25mm was the agreed best IIRC.

[bluc]

Biggest impact on what?

flavour carry over?
speed?

There was a thread about it a while ago.
Deeper the bath depth the less flavour you get i think was the consensus
I think 25mm was the agreed best IIRC.

Abv% compression of heads and cleaner cuts.. guessing that is what a bubbler is for higher abv and cleaner hearts like a reflux but with flavour carry over like a pot, from a perspective of making brown spirits
Do the individual plates also effect the takeoff rate or is it the combined number of plates determine take off speed?

[scythe]

Column diameter is the main factor in take off rate.

Number of plates helps with fraction separation but column height also plays a part in this.

Keep in mind that even with a 4" column most people set it at a max take off of 1.5-2.0l/hr to keep the ABV up and the spirit clean.

As a guestimate expent your max take off on a 2" column to be a bit less than half that for a good high ABV and clean distillate.

[Sam.]

I would be guessing take off rate would be even less than that to maintain ABV, will be interesting to hear the results when it's done :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[WTDist]

Column diameter is the main factor in take off rate.

Number of plates helps with fraction separation but column height also plays a part in this.

Keep in mind that even with a 4" column most people set it at a max take off of 1.5-2.0l/hr to keep the ABV up and the spirit clean.

As a guestimate expent your max take off on a 2" column to be a bit less than half that for a good high ABV and clean distillate.

I agree it will be slow. i originally thought matbe 0.8l/h but if i add low wines to half the mix im hoping thos will increase take off rate slightly with larger heart cut. in happy with 1 l/h as that is what i do nealtral at now so anything faster is a bonus

[db1979]

G'day WT

I built a 2" bubbler very similar to what you are building. Can't remember how to post hyperlinks as I haven't been on here for ages otherwise I'd put in a link to my thread. It was designed to run on my stove top and I think the thread was called stove top bubbler.

Anyway, it's still going strong, it makes all that I need seeing as I don't drink much but can't stomach the thought of paying more than $2 for a bottle of vodka :-P

Power I'm guessing would be somewhere around 600 W for a 40% abv boiler charge and maybe a touch higher for a 10% abv charge. Any higher and I find the still plays up with the simmerstat from the stove. Originally when I was planning it others thought the simmerstat was going to be a problem but if driven right it's fine. But that won't be a problem for you anyway.

Take off rate I've never really paid a heap of attention too but it's probably somewhere between 0.4 to 0.6 litres per hour. But I'm just guessing. It might even be lower. Your 25 L boiler might take quite a while to get through at that rate. I sometimes ferment in a 23 L fermenter and strip in 3 x 7 L batches and combine for a spirit run and it takes a long time.

I usually run weetbix vodka through it, often stripping first before spirit. Tastes bloody fantastic. Bourbon (BWKO) tastes great too and the Limoncello was a hit as Chrissy presents last year (from weetbix wash).

I built mine as a solid block too, with the RC and beyond in one piece and detachable from the column. I used pasta sheets snapped into thin pieces to keep the plates at the right height for soldering and they went to mush and ended up in the boiler during the first cleaning run. I considered using salt but figured it would just suck the heat out of the metal. Salt would have washed out really easy though. Plate spacing was just over 50 mm as I was trying to keep height to a minimum and it all fits on my 7.6 L stockpot boiler and underneath the range hood.

My PC was 3 x 3/8" shotgun inside a 1" outer.

One day I'll build a 4", got the copper just need the time. Irony is that I'd probably have the time IF I already had a 4"!

Downside is the slow run time. But it's simple and easy to run.

Hope what I've found can be helpful.

[db1979]

Should also add that if you want to know more you're better off PM-ing me as I don't get on here often enough and will miss any questions.

[db1979]

Also, worth mentioning that I take ~30 ml cuts and usually bigger cuts if I feel confident I'm well into hearts but nowhere near tails. Cuts larger than this are probably wasteful on a still this size. I find I'm into hearts within about 4-5 jars on a 10% Abv boiler charge. Having no sight glasses means I can't see the onset of tails either. But I have no problem smelling that stinky muck.

Abv is consistently 91 to 92%.

[WTDist]

Also, worth mentioning that I take ~30 ml cuts and usually bigger cuts if I feel confident I'm well into hearts but nowhere near tails. Cuts larger than this are probably wasteful on a still this size. I find I'm into hearts within about 4-5 jars on a 10% Abv boiler charge. Having no sight glasses means I can't see the onset of tails either. But I have no problem smelling that stinky muck.

Abv is consistently 91 to 92%.

interesting. With my T500 boiler and a power controller would you think it is possible to get 1 l/h with low wines? higher abv wash for faster take off rate?
i usually take 150 ml cuts on a large charge (25L) as re running feints is no problem.

when i ran (wont do this again until my controller is checked, wayyy to fast maybe reached 10 l/h t times) 23L of low wines @ 40% and no power controller with 1.55m of packing with ss scrubbers i had my RC on full and couldnt get it below 5.5l/h and it was spraying out. i was hoping that a higher abv in plates would give me more speed and separation. i dont want it perfect but a good drop would be nice

im wondering weather or not i should go through with this now. 600ml an hour is doable just but less is not. i have kids and this already takes up to much time :think:
plus cutting up a piece of 2" for 400ml an hour seems like a waste

Would you tink 800ml to 1l/h is able to be achieved with higher ABV wash, like 30% to 40% and a a larger charge of the boiler and power controller. can it be pushed that bit further?

Cheers
WTD

[WTDist]

after some careful thinking this morning and last night i think i can at least get 800ml per hour going on those readings without too much smearing. if i can get more yay. with no simmer-stat or a stove turning on and off i think a good low power with my controller to start and a with with half low wines and half normal wash, will maybe work in going faster.

My thoughts on this is if people can get a pot to go at least 1l/h on low power, maybe 1300W? not sure exactly, then if i go lower than this and reflux for 15 min it should evaporate of the fractions in order (reflux for 15 min with enough power to do mostly heads, slightly more?) like pot mode but reflux slightly and separate out fractions better as they pass through individual plates. maybe rushing will be the downfall but i feel i can find a good relationship between reflux and power and i should be able to drive it with the controller slowly turning power up as the wash boils through the fractions, like a pot but with a slight bit more power to keep flow rate up and reflux to maintain abv.

Ive read also that the more slots in a bubble cap and the thinner they are the more ABV that can be reached due to there being more small bubbles, more tiny bubbles = more ABV. hoping my many hacksaw width slots are good enough rather than a few 5mm apart, mine are more like 1mm to 2mm apart. :pray:

still got my concerns but i can deal with 800ml an hour. i feel the 25L boiler with a good controller with half the boiler being normal wash topped up with 1 or 2 stripped washes to gain abv will help maintain abv.
I think there will be a relationship there between the RC flow, wash ABV and power thrown at it to get a manageable l/h. I just need to find it. Ill cut up my 2" tomorrow, shape up my plates and put them in. might use the pasta sheet method :))

worst case scenario i waste 350mm of 2" and some time and this plate section ends up in the for sale section for a newbie for real cheap 8-}

[bluc]

I must run my pot way to fast because I get about 2l hour from 2 inch little bit less but not much. I usually get 4L from 10l lw over about 2 and quarter hour 16x 250ml lots.

I thought a bubbler could be run faster than a pot of same size with cleaner separation? Even at 1l/h a 2" bubbler would halve my running time because you can do just a single run without stripping first. At least thats what I have read...
I am very keen to see your results WTDIST :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[WTDist]

ill try. the volume of plates difference is 4 times smaller than 4" so if 2.5l/h is good on 4" then 600ml is 4 times less but i will test this out. ill boil the wash slowly like pot mode with 4 plates so it doesnt smear. Im sure i can find a relationship. if you can go that fast in pot mode than i should be ableo get 1 l/h . even if abv is constant around 80% to 90% it is still good. just probably going to waste a few washes in the process

[scythe]

Best thing is if a run goes bad just mix it back into the boiler and start again.
After its cooled down a bit so you can touch the still without burning tour self.

Pots run the fastest but the ABV is lower, good for making low wines tho.
Bubblers attain high ABV while still being able to carry flavour over
Reflux stills attain high ABV but you lose all flavour.

Depends what you want really.
2inch bubbler might get 2l/hr stripping where a 4inch bubbler would comfortably double maybe even tripple that stripping, not sure as most users of bubblers tend not to strip the majority of their washes.

[db1979]

Also, worth mentioning that I take ~30 ml cuts and usually bigger cuts if I feel confident I'm well into hearts but nowhere near tails. Cuts larger than this are probably wasteful on a still this size. I find I'm into hearts within about 4-5 jars on a 10% Abv boiler charge. Having no sight glasses means I can't see the onset of tails either. But I have no problem smelling that stinky muck.

Abv is consistently 91 to 92%.

interesting. With my T500 boiler and a power controller would you think it is possible to get 1 l/h with low wines? higher abv wash for faster take off rate?
i usually take 150 ml cuts on a large charge (25L) as re running feints is no problem.

when i ran (wont do this again until my controller is checked, wayyy to fast maybe reached 10 l/h t times) 23L of low wines @ 40% and no power controller with 1.55m of packing with ss scrubbers i had my RC on full and couldnt get it below 5.5l/h and it was spraying out. i was hoping that a higher abv in plates would give me more speed and separation. i dont want it perfect but a good drop would be nice

im wondering weather or not i should go through with this now. 600ml an hour is doable just but less is not. i have kids and this already takes up to much time :think:
plus cutting up a piece of 2" for 400ml an hour seems like a waste

Would you tink 800ml to 1l/h is able to be achieved with higher ABV wash, like 30% to 40% and a a larger charge of the boiler and power controller. can it be pushed that bit further?

Cheers
WTD

I find that if I'm going to have problems with the simmerstat then it'll usually be with a higher Abv charge and I've gotta be really carefully with where I set the heat at. What happens then is the RC can't cope with the increase in heat and whatever comes up to the RC just passes straight through and I get a big flow of product out of the PC... Not good for avoiding smearing. So if you don't have a simmerstat to worry about then maybe it could be driven harder, I should probably give it a few runs on gas to see how fast I can run it. But then again if the 4" inch guys get about 4 times as much speed with 4 times the plate area then what I get then maybe it's not worth pushing it that far. Loss of quality and all.

I don't find the long run time to be all that much a problem usually. I'm a teacher and usually set it up to run while I'm marking... And if I can get back some of those tedious hours of marking over the year by also making some awesome moonshine then I reckon I've gotta be ahead :handgestures-thumbupleft: I understand the kid problem.

Your RC is about twice the size of mine, given that you have 5 tubes in 100 mm and I have 7 in 40 mm. Not knowledgeable enough on this but maybe someone else can chime in and suggest if this could help it run faster or not? I think I remember someone earlier in the thread say that run speed is proportional to column cross sectional area and not RC size :think:

Pasta sheets worked well but still bloody fiddly. Just make sure to give it a good soaking over night to get them nice and soft before you go to do your cleaning run. Also, trying to solder inside 2" pipe is a pain, as I said in my thread I used my ozito rotary tool with the flexible extension attachment and wire brush and buffed up the area that needed soldering for a few minutes to be sure before immediately applying some flux. The shorter the column the better when doing this type of fiddly soldering.

Good luck, post any results you get. You've got me thinking about making up a standalone hotplate without a simmerstat. Surely it's doable,and if it means I can run faster then that's a win.