Winter yeast tales & a warning

Yeast talk, turbo, bakers and specialised strains

Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby bt1 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:31 am

Howdy,

First the good news.
Saflarger S23 by Fermentis aint cheap and you really need to yeast bomb your second and subsequent washes so you only need to buy it once at the start of winter and just keep going. If your having break pop some active wash in a jar loose lid, little extra cooled dissolved sugar and dap, into the fridge.

Tried Brew Cellar Premium Lager Yeast as it has a better pitching rate and is $5.50 my local HBS vs. $7.50
http://www.brewcellar.com.au/beerrange/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=34
A typical larger slow start say 2-3 hours on a Rye sugar/cooked Rye wash, and is happily plodding along in week two at a reasonable rate. happy!
Yeast bombed second wash, it's away nicely so robust enough for re pitching.

I'm not a rum drinker but house mate is...finally got to put down three rum washes down this weekend with S23 =fail. Busted that $22 experiment.
No other changes identical conditions but a lager yeast on these washes is DOA.
This is the second lot for a rum that has failed.

I'd suggest not considering a lager yeast for a rum wash as a result.

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Dominator » Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:48 am

Rum = Lowans FTW
Dominator
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:45 am
Location: Sunshine Coast QLD
equipment: 2" Pot Still/Hybrid
4" Perf Plate Bubbler
50L Keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Kravin » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:16 am

Hey bt1,

only because I know you're chasing quality malt whisky.

Lager yeasts are happiest between 7C-12C and in winter are great for brewing. Colder and it goes to sleep and drops out of suspension, warmer and it imparts off flavours and fusel alcohols.
Other problems with lager yeasts is that they generally produce a lot of off flavours and aromas during the ferment, green apples, rotten egg, cabbage and corn smells, all due to the type of yeast it is. lager yeast also take a long time to floc-out and settle. Hence the need to 'lager' them.
Lagering can be anywhere from 2 weeks to months at 0C. Lagering allows these unwanted flavours to drop out and leave you with a clean, dry beer.
Without lagering, the yeast stays in suspension along with any funky smells and tastes.

For Distilling, i suppose ideally you'd want a well attenuative, alcohol tolerant and flocculent yeast that has a decent temperature range.
I would suggest an ale yeast over a lager yeast and move your fermenters to inside the house (if they're not already there). Ale yeasts are happiest at ~18C-25C which is what it would probably be inside your house.

I would suggest Whitelabs WLP007 Dry English Ale yeast.
It will ferment out up to about 10% ABV and drop out pretty clear when done. it's a quick fermenter (4-7 days depending on temp) and will finish dry but still leaving a nice malty profile.

Now, the issue here... around $14 for a vial that's designed for a 1045ish beer @ 23L when you'll want to ferment out something around 1070 and 60L doesn't make for a cheap yeast.
But there are ways around that too. A little bit of stuffing around, but the results pay off.
Brewers yeast and distillers yeast are different to the point that brewers yeast can be reused.

Assuming you have a 30L and 60L fermenter.
brew up 20L and ferment it out with 1 vial.
rack that off leaving the yeast cake behind.
brew up another 20L and (at the right temperature) dump that straight on top of the yeast cake and ferment out (ferment will go crazy on this).
rack that off and then transfer the entire yeastcake to your 60L fermenter.
Brew up a 60L batch and dump that straight onto the yeastcake.

so there's 100L on a $14 vial of a good quality yeast.

if you don't have a 60L Fermenter
After the second 20L batch, scoop out 2 cups of the yeastcake and put it aside in a clean, sanitised container.
Clean out the fermenter and dump your 3rd 20L batch in.
pitch your 2 cups of yeast into this and let it ferment out.
you can continue this until you notice the beer\wash\brew changing in flavour. then it'll be time to buy a new vial.

a few caveats to this:
WHEN DEALING WITH YEAST STORAGE- SANITATION IS PARAMOUNT everything that comes in contact with the yeast, must be clean and sanitised, this includes you.
yeast generally doesn't like high volumes of alcohol AND yeast will mutate from generation to generation.
given the purpose of this brew is to distil, and the ideal beer being ~10%, the chances of these two occurring more rapidly for the distiller would be higher than that of the brewer.

in my experience, saved yeast cake will happily sit in the fridge for up to 8 weeks and still kick off fine for a brew.
so depending on how much you brew, you can save 2 batches of yeast cake from the second 20L brew, use 1 until it mutates and is starting to produce off flavours, then ditch that and start with the 2 batch that's been sitting in your fridge.

like I said, a little bit of stuffing around initially, but the results would reduce your $14 vial of quality brewers yeast down to just a few cents a brew.

Kravin.
Kravin
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 9:45 pm
Location: South Australia
equipment: No Still Yet

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby bt1 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:37 pm

kravin,

cheers hear what your saying.

I'll persist with lager yeasts for grain sugar heads= no heating=bonus.

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby crow » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:27 am

Kravin wrote
Brewers yeast and distillers yeast are different to the point that brewers yeast can be reused.

@ Kravin, not sure what you mean here. What do you think is the problem with distillers yeast
crow
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:44 am
Location: Central Highlands Victoria
equipment: ultra pure reflux still and a 4" 4 plate MacStill built copper bubble cap column and a 500mm scoria packed rectifying module

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Hobo » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:51 pm

Heya bt1, I don't know why you would use lager yeasts unless making beer?
I know they ferment at colder temps but that could push a 45l wash out to 3-4 weeks thus taking up valuable fermenter real estate.
I just finished a Weetbix wash using Lowan's and an aquarium heater that I bought off ebay for $18, just set at 28 deg and let her rip. All done in 9 days, I will run it on the weekend.
I have an energy meter in my bus which shows real time power usage and that sucker only used 50w and only when thermostat was on. Big plus is you can dial up exactly the temperature you want. That's just my thoughts, hope it helps :smile:
Hobo
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:41 pm
Location: Aussie Drifter.\ Hometown Melbourne, currently Central Qld
equipment: Home made Copper Reflux still, 50l keg boiler, 2inch x 850mm column packed with stainless scrubbers and reverse liebig condenser. 95% and stoked!

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Sam. » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:13 pm

Hobo wrote:Heya bt1, I don't know why you would use lager yeasts unless making beer?
I know they ferment at colder temps but that could push a 45l wash out to 3-4 weeks thus taking up valuable fermenter real estate.
I just finished a Weetbix wash using Lowan's and an aquarium heater that I bought off ebay for $18, just set at 28 deg and let her rip. All done in 9 days, I will run it on the weekend.
I have an energy meter in my bus which shows real time power usage and that sucker only used 50w and only when thermostat was on. Big plus is you can dial up exactly the temperature you want. That's just my thoughts, hope it helps :smile:


The point is in Adelaide fermenting outside this time of year it is going to be cold as your missus after saying her sister was better...

No heating requirement and just let it go, but your right, you will sacrifice time being done versus heating :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I am in no rush to get most of mine going, can see myself doing this with a couple of 200L washes outside :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Sam.
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:19 pm
Location: South Oz Straya
equipment: Original FSD 5 plate 4 inch modular bubbler SSG with hand crafted plates and parrot by Mac.
18 Gal boiler.
2 x 2400W elements and power controller.
.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby bt1 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:06 am

+1 sam,

Well I ain't heating 400lt of wash in winter...never have.. You realise that's about 2 -3 pints at the local per day in terms of costs(happy hours daily $4 pints yum!...a new one for Crow...Coopers Dark Ale...bloody cracker it is too)?

kk it take a few weeks...the weathers shit so getting good weekend is dam hard and in winter I don't wont to be running every weekend...footy to watch :D

Just space the fermenters a few weeks apart and you got 2 runs every weekend if your real keen.

Got 300lt finished so can't see myself going short.

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Hobo » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:24 pm

bt1 wrote:+1 sam,

Well I ain't heating 400lt of wash in winter...never have.. You realise that's about 2 -3 pints at the local per day in terms of costs(happy hours daily $4 pints yum!...a new one for Crow...Coopers Dark Ale...bloody cracker it is too)?

kk it take a few weeks...the weathers shit so getting good weekend is dam hard and in winter I don't wont to be running every weekend...footy to watch :D

Just space the fermenters a few weeks apart and you got 2 runs every weekend if your real keen.

Got 300lt finished so can't see myself going short.

bt1


Yeah, gotcha on that one, 400l wash, bloody hell, that would take some heating! I used to brew my beer in a 60l fermenter in Melbourne over winter with a fish tank heater. The yeast cost doesn't sound so expensive now I know its 400 frickin litres!
What a joy it must be to have space for heaps of fermenters! Main aim is to avoid going thirsty!
Hobo
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:41 pm
Location: Aussie Drifter.\ Hometown Melbourne, currently Central Qld
equipment: Home made Copper Reflux still, 50l keg boiler, 2inch x 850mm column packed with stainless scrubbers and reverse liebig condenser. 95% and stoked!

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Jonno » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:57 pm

sometimes its actually easier and cheaper to have the larger fermenters.

I know i put my 200L ones just outside under me steps near the hot water system. Makes it easier and you dont have to wait so long for a spirit run :laughing-rolling:
Jonno
 

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Kravin » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:51 pm

crow wrote:
Kravin wrote
Brewers yeast and distillers yeast are different to the point that brewers yeast can be reused.

@ Kravin, not sure what you mean here. What do you think is the problem with distillers yeast


No problem with the yeast. It does what it's meant to do.
I think it comes down to it's purpose. Distillers yeast is meant to go hard and fast with high alcohol tolerance. but because of this, the yeast will be in a pretty volatile environment with high ethanol and fusel alcohols, as well as any flavours produced when dealing with hard and fast ferments at the end. the main reason why nutrient is recommended, because it's going to keep the yeast going that little bit longer in high alcohol and volatile environment before it fucks out.

Brewers yeast is different due to the fact not only does it produce ethanol and c02, but depending on the strain, the brewer wants to impart flavours.
it's not supposed to be a rocket that you want to chew through a ferment ASAP. it's supposed to ferment out beers and add balance and flavour to the style your brewing.

I'm not saying you can't reuse distillers yeast, what im saying is the chance of rapid mutation and poor results would happen quicker with distillers yeast than brewers yeast.

Kravin wrote:yeast generally doesn't like high volumes of alcohol AND yeast will mutate from generation to generation.
given the purpose of this brew is to distil, and the ideal beer being ~10%, the chances of these two occurring more rapidly for the distiller would be higher than that of the brewer.


Cheers,

Kravin
Kravin
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 9:45 pm
Location: South Australia
equipment: No Still Yet

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby MacStill » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:46 pm

Yeah bloody dumb arse distillers pushing their yeast to the max, totally unacceptable :))

Who woulda thunk it 8-}
MacStill
Lifetime Member
 
Posts: 16835
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:40 pm
Location: Wide Bay QLD
equipment: Anything I choose :P

Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby BackyardBrewer » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:55 pm

bt1 wrote:...a new one for Crow...Coopers Dark Ale...bloody cracker it is too


Bt1 you do know this beer has been around forever? There's nothing new about Cooper's Dark... Or am I missing the context? This is a classic from cooper's, not some new invention.
BackyardBrewer
Site Donor
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:18 pm
Location: South Aussie
equipment: Solid Copper Love Machine (Plated column bubbler), hand made with love by a forum member
50L keg boiler with 2 x 2400w elements
PURE distilling Reflux still + a tonne of homebrew gear amassed over 10 years of brewing.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Sam. » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:53 pm

BackyardBrewer wrote:
bt1 wrote:...a new one for Crow...Coopers Dark Ale...bloody cracker it is too


Bt1 you do know this beer has been around forever? There's nothing new about Cooper's Dark... Or am I missing the context? This is a classic from cooper's, not some new invention.


I was thinking that as well :think:
Sam.
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:19 pm
Location: South Oz Straya
equipment: Original FSD 5 plate 4 inch modular bubbler SSG with hand crafted plates and parrot by Mac.
18 Gal boiler.
2 x 2400W elements and power controller.
.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby bt1 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:46 am

Dam,

you mean I could have been drinking this earlier than April this year?

bloody waste of good drinking time.

Never new it existed till local start a $4 pint promo to be honest...I thought it was that mid strength bullshit one...

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Sam. » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:39 am

Yeah I don't reckon I have seen it on tap anywhere :think:

But it has definitely been around in carton form for a while :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Sam.
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10275
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:19 pm
Location: South Oz Straya
equipment: Original FSD 5 plate 4 inch modular bubbler SSG with hand crafted plates and parrot by Mac.
18 Gal boiler.
2 x 2400W elements and power controller.
.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby crow » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:57 pm

Yeah sorry to dampen your excitement bt but dark ale has been around for a very long time. When I was in about my early 20's I'd hazard a guess, I drank dark ale because it was as close to black and tan as I could find in a take away bottle (Black & tan was a fav pub Winter drink back in .08 days) :laughing-rolling:
@ Kravin
umm...ok...yup. We are mainly discussing yeasts for distilling here, If you're looking for aussie home ego's, down the passage 3rd door on the right or failing that we have a whole subbie on brewing and beer right here. :laughing-rolling:
I have just read your post and it seems a bit thin on logic and possibly comprehension so here's the logic, comprehension is the encumbrance of the reader.
The companies that isolate, develop and market strains of yeast spend millions of dollars and many thousands of man hrs to get the results the market requires. yeast developed to brew a given beer has been conditioned to brew that beer, that's not to say it won't do anything else but that is what it is conditioned for. Yeast developed specifically for distilling has been conditioned for (you guessed it) "distilling" and often (not always is conditioned to comfortably ferment in a higher ABV. As someone once wrote
No problem with the yeast. It does what it's meant to do.

Now I'm talking about yeasts developed for ferments to produce specific product "example" safmalt : malt whiskey
OK now nutrients
nutrients are added to either speed up a ferment or much more commonly to a wash that would otherwise lack them eg most sugar washes, yeast will not ferment anything without them ;-) . A lot of Mashes and some washes have all the neuts necessary for a good healthy ferment but some don't . In short most brewing yeasts are recommended for around 5% and may fail at 7% , most distilling yeasts will go to say 12% comfortably but may produce unwanted esters at say 15 to 16% onwards (just generally figures)
Turbo yeast
I know no one mentioned them but just in case you were alluding to them with your 'Rocket" comment i thought it might be pertinent of me to mention them. I understand that these yeasts have been developed from a strain used for the fuel industry and although they are promoted as fit for distilling I don't think I'd be the lone ranger if I was to reveal the opinion that they are in fact not particularly good for producing a quality spirit, they are not what the majority here (or anywhere else for that matter) would consider a "distilling yeast" :roll:
crow
 
Posts: 2359
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:44 am
Location: Central Highlands Victoria
equipment: ultra pure reflux still and a 4" 4 plate MacStill built copper bubble cap column and a 500mm scoria packed rectifying module

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby bt1 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:03 pm

Look figured I needed /owed you all a post update here...

No revelation but a smooth transition.

6 week old Lager ferment, bloody nice it is btw,

threw some yeast bed slops into a 5lt mason, aged tap water, with dissolved 100gm sugar, Epsom and dap, 2 teaspoons of DME, 20c pitching temp = Yeast bomb

The bloody yeast showed no signs of life.. Lagers! hey

Pitched into new 60lt fermenter...going like well ....in fact almost baker's yeast speed...not bad for a lager!

So no yeast saves in the fridge required anymore a lager yeast will re gen no issues.

The taste of these washes coming off lagers is spot on and power costs...love it...winter could become a new string to the wash making bow for this black duck!

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby Jonno » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:10 pm

i haven't even opened up my fermenter that has the lager yeast since i threw it together about 6 weeks ago :laughing-rolling:

hope its finished :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Jonno
 

Re: Winter yeast tales & a warning

Postby bt1 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:18 pm

Jonno,

Trust yours will finish soon :handgestures-thumbupleft:

geez it really does taste bloody good at a young age...I'm very happy... it's well worth the wait imho

bt1
bt1
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:56 am
Location: Adelaide
equipment: 2 x Glass Bubblers, 5 plate 89mm & 6 plate 110mm
4" 6 plate copper bubbler, 500mm copper packed section
Several pots, custom boiler
14 keg rotating brew setup, fermentation & dispenser fridges.

Next

Return to Yeast



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

x