Use of bacteria during fermentation

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Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:27 am

Arroyo stated the use of clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria during the fermentation of rum produces several desirable esters improving the flavor profile. I am interested in trying this. It sounds pretty straight forward. Introduce the culture 6-12 hours into the ferment, bacteria and yeast co-ferment the wash actually speeding up the ferment some, the abv at the end of the ferment kills the bacteria leaving behind the desired esters and of course the ethanol. So what do you guys think?
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Kimbo » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:33 am

stillwagon wrote:Arroyo stated the use of clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria during the fermentation of rum produces several desirable esters improving the flavor profile. I am interested in trying this. It sounds pretty straight forward. Introduce the culture 6-12 hours into the ferment, bacteria and yeast co-ferment the wash actually speeding up the ferment some, the abv at the end of the ferment kills the bacteria leaving behind the desired esters and of course the ethanol. So what do you guys think?

Sounds good, let us know how you go :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:10 pm

Where do you find this bacteria
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby MacStill » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:39 pm

Yummyrum wrote:Where do you find this bacteria


I think it's the stuff found in an aged dunder pit :think:
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby bt1 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:49 pm

Can you provide some doco /links to the original info so we can take a good look at it please
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:13 pm

MacStill wrote:
Yummyrum wrote:Where do you find this bacteria


I think it's the stuff found in an aged dunder pit :think:

Yeah thats what I thought but tjeres no way I'm sticking some of that straight into a ferment.
Theres some fuckin green stuff in my buckets last I looked :scared-eek:
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Yummyrum » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:34 pm

Stillwagon ,I started a Thread Here about Dunder pits as I don't know if its relevant to what you're discussing here or not
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:40 am

One of the sources is a pdf that is available online. The author is J.E. Murtagh, Chapter 16 Feedstocks, fermentation and distillation for production of heavy and light rums.

The bacteria is available through ATCC labs for a little under $400 for the culture.
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:45 am

From what I understand, Arroyo isolated the bacteria responsible for the esters that happen through the use of infected, and aged dunder. But this method eliminated the infection of undesireable microbes and fungi giving him a controlled and predictable outcome. So, I believe this is related to dunder and dunder pits but a more refined practice and procedure to achieve similar results.
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Sam. » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:45 am

stillwagon wrote:The bacteria is available through ATCC labs for a little under $400 for the culture.


Is that price a typo? :scared-eek:
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Yummyrum » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:05 pm

sam_and_liv wrote:
stillwagon wrote:The bacteria is available through ATCC labs for a little under $400 for the culture.


Is that price a typo? :scared-eek:

Gezz I sure hope so Sam ,but either way, stillwagon, you started this so you got a take one for the team and try a vile of that shit :handgestures-thumbupleft: :happy-partydance: :teasing-neener:
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby adam89 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:14 pm

Well done SW. That is an expensive trial to undertake. You really are taking one for the team. It has been posted, you must commit.
I'm sure the Aussie Distiller community will be waiting to hear your reports on this. (No pressure)

Fuck, you'd hope to get a fair amount for $400 though haha.
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby MacStill » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:23 pm

OK anyone who's had a store bought top shelf rum has probably drank a boiled bacteria, some of the best known rums out there are made with the introduction of infected dunder added at some stage.

It's not as bad as it sounds ;-)
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:56 pm

Ha ha! You guys gave me a chuckle this morning, thanks. I will be trying it out. In the scheme of things it is a relatively small business expense. I almost have the distillery ready, so I should be able to test it out soon.

I believe MacStill is right. If you have every eaten yogurt, sour cream, cottage cheese, etc., you are eating live bacteria cultures. At least in this case it has been boiled and killed by the high abv of the distillate. I believe this to be a more reproducible process as the bacteria is isolated and not from a collection of airborne fungi and pathogens in the hopes of getting the right one to be the dominating factor.

I will keep you informed. Thanks for your input.
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:05 am

I found a few more labs that sell the bacteria. One in England, a couple in Asia, and another private firm in the US. I have an inquiry with the US firm. An interesting side note is that this bacteria is also sold as a probiotic in capsule form, for the regulation of normal gut activities and to help control diarrhea. It is non-pathogenic and is a normal inhabitant of the human gut in the mid intestinal region.

I was also given a two step yeast protocol that uses a low alcohol tolerant/high ester producing yeast In the first part of fermentation, This yeast dies out at about 2% ABV. Then the second yeast is pitched to finish out the ferment. I will let you know how this goes as well.
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Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Dominator » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:05 am

stillwagon wrote: An interesting side note is that this bacteria is also sold as a probiotic in capsule form, for the regulation of normal gut activities and to help control diarrhea. It is non-pathogenic and is a normal inhabitant of the human gut in the mid intestinal region.


Hmmmm... I wonder if this could make the bacteria accessible for the hobby distiller?


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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:44 am

It would be if you can get them to ship to the US or where ever you are at. Current markets for the probiotic form are overseas in Asia and Japan. You need a 2% volume of the inoculum made up. So that is about a gallon for a 50 gallon wash. You would have to culture the bacteria, introduce it to a sterile medium, allow it to reproduce at about 30-37 degrees C. I am getting a price for the inoculum already made up. Saves me the expense of an incubator with a CO2 environment. It has to be cultured without the presence of oxygen as it is an anaerobic bacteria. I didn't budget in a lab in my distillery expenses...
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby Yummyrum » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:50 am

So just throwing in couple of bottles of yacult isn't going to work then :laughing-rolling:
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:52 am

I spoke with a fermentation specialist at Lallemand, and have the inoculum preparation procedure. I should be able to try it out in the next couple of weeks... It is a lot simpler than I thought it would be. I will keep you posted.
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Re: Use of bacteria during fermentation

Postby stillwagon » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:34 am

Cultures are in! As soon as my Incubator arrives I can begin.
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