How to.... easy, easy flange.

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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby scythe » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:59 pm

I would do as suggested and flatten them, gradually, and once they start to touch solder them, then carry on flattening them.

But if they don't end up touching then you can always fill the gap with soft solder because by that point they should be prety close...

How did you manage to make it smaller?
I find i make them bigger rather than smaller, and then need to file the ends to get them closer to the pipe.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Psykamaholik » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:11 pm

I`ll give that a try, cant really stuff it any worse than it is :teasing-tease:

I just followed the instructions but used a permanent marker that may have been a bit too wide of a tip, cut ith the dremel
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby db1979 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:26 pm

If you flatten the rings and they end up bigger (which they will) they can be bent a little and if you hammer them back again you can get it to reduce its radius. If I can recall correctly, I think it's done by holding the flattened ring at a slight angle. I know this is a terrible explanation, but I'm not sure how to explain it well. Perhaps I should give it another go and try and take some photos.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby woodduck » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:44 pm

I would've thought the inside of the ring would get smaller not bigger by flattening? I find the ring gets tighter on the pipe the more I flatten it, to the point where some times they brake.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby db1979 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:33 pm

The straighter a pipe is, the larger its radius of curvature is and the least stress there is on its walls. If the radius gets smaller the outer edge will get more stretched.

It's the outer edge resisting getting stretched that causes the ring to increase its radius of curvature instead as it wants to resist the strain of being flattened. If the ring is soldered (hard not soft) the copper has less choice in the matter and behaves differently.

I should add that I don't have hard solder so all my flanges have been done with soft solder and I've flattened the rings before soldering to the pipe. Also, I add them to the opposite side of the flare instead of the usual.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby scythe » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:34 am

WD:
The rings get smaller and grab the pipe, but only if they are hard soldered together, for every bend you make the overall length increases.
There is a formula for it.
Let me see if i can find it.
(0.4292×R, where R is the bend radius in inches)
Rule of thumb is you gain 1 pipe diameter for each 90° bend.
And as we are increasing the pipe diameter by flattening it but keeping the same radius it will grow.

Swageloc have a good PDF.


Psykamaholic:
Strange, it shouldnt matter how thick the mark is, only how thick your cutting method is.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby woodduck » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 am

Yep I think I'm following you guys now. I'll give it a try on a couple I've got sitting atound :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Zak Griffin » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:40 am

Mine always seem to grab the pipe too? ID gets smaller...
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby woodduck » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:44 am

Yep when it's soldered together is what they're saying. If it's not soldered together the theory is that the tube will stretch then it can be pulled together to make a larger ring. I think that's what they're saying :-B
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby db1979 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:34 pm

Ok so I had this ring of flattened 1/4" which I was using as a spacer to help my clamps at the top of my bubbler to seal properly.

15138621120300.jpg


Turns out my flanges and seals weren't thick enough to seal up properly. So instead of stuffing around with this makeshift fix I decided to add the ring to the flange.

Problem is I don't have hard solder and the ring is now oversized.

After flattening it looks like this.
15138621792923.jpg


So I bend it again
15138622112605.jpg


And hammer it on my anvil (sorry, it's just a stoning hammer, it's all I've got) and use the leverage to bend the ring in on itself. The photo's not the best but it's hard to take a good photo when you're holding the camera, copper and hammer at the same time.
15138622348626.jpg


Anyway after a bit of hammering and bending and bending and hammering she fits (well mostly) the flange.
15138622621807.jpg


It's important that the angle of hammering uses the leverage of the anvil to push the ring into a smaller diameter. It's harder at the ends of the ring as you get less leverage.

To be continued...
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby db1979 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:38 pm

After trimming the overhang:
15138622818868.jpg


Now just needs to be soldered on.

15138622967969.jpg


And that's how I've done most of my flanges. The rest are either just flared pipe or in the case of a condenser, the end plate is soldered to the outside of the flared pipe. LPG and soft solder all the way.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Sam. » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:14 am

Looks good :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Always great to see the Australian safety boots in action too :D :laughing-rolling:
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Russ » Tue May 08, 2018 11:18 pm

Hi all just a quick post with my 2 cents.

First of all thanks to MacStill for the how to make easy flanges, you saved me a bit of cash and I like the idea of soldering copper to copper rather than stainless ferrules to copper.

I have used this method and I found a couple of things I did that helped, but fair warning, I am only in the build process and my flanges haven't been used in anger yet...

First of all I used an angle grinder with a thin blade to cut the 1/4" pipe. What I found is that it was easier to have a piece that just wrapped around the pipe to be flanged (in my case 4") with a bit left over for good measure. The good news about this is anybody doing AC installs will have these lengths by the kilo in their scrap copper bin, asking nicely can get you a surprisingly long way, especially if it is followed with a good story. So the process I used is to wrap the 1/4 pipe around the 4, with a bit extra wrapping around. The 1/4 will tend to spring open again once pressure is released, so I just carefully eased it to a tighter circle by hand away from the 4" until it was a pretty close fit, this is where a single loop helped initially. Once the loop was a pretty good fit with a little clearance, without having to squeeze it together I cut the excess pieces away with the grinder, then checked it on the 4" pipe again, some needed a little more taken off. Once the loop was pretty close I VERY carefully pushed it closed, both sides against a spinning blade, this made the mating surface pretty close to perfect. Now not to brag but I am a tradie so if you are doing this please be careful, if the blade grabs it will launch violently in a direction, most likely towards the nice soft part of your hand between your thumb and fingers, you have been warned. If this concerns you I would think the missus's nail file would do the same job. I didn't have a nail file in the shed at the time so I cannot say for sure.

So once the ring has been made, I just sorta pushed and squeezed it until it sat with both ends together nicely, then silver soldered the join, get the ends to just start glowing red, a small dab of solder, then flip over (carefully...HOT!!!) and draw some more solder with the flame, I didn't need to add much if any more solder to the opposite side, it will follow the heat.

The only other thing to add is I used a lump of 3 by 2 hardwood to hammer the 1/4 pipe onto the 4" pipe. I cut it flat, about 400mm long, and used it as a crude hammer (hitting on the end grain) to flatten the 1/4. As it is flattening it will tend to grip the larger pipe, steady as it goes, don't try to flatten in one pass, rather a couple. I also happen to have a large milling machine in the shed and I used the T slot bed as an anvil, it is very flat and very heavy, but I am sure thick flat steel on something solid would work just as well, copper is pretty soft after all. If the 1/4 happens to pop off the larger pipe once it is mostly flat, it will be almost impossible to get it back on without violence and swearing, and will most likely not be very flat any more, I don't wanna talk about how I know this! Keep checking it by flipping over, use the timber laying across the flange and tap down with a hammer to align.

I found with solver soldering ( I used the yellow tip rods, I think they are 2%) the whole 4" pipe needed to get hot before soldering was any good, so have both flanges done and ready to solder, that will save a lot of gas.

If any of this doesn't make sense, just ask, I don't always explain things very well after a few brandy's, hypothetically speaking of course :)

OK so that wasn't such a quick post.

Cheers.

Russell.
Last edited by Russ on Tue May 08, 2018 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby alpha1000 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:45 am

hi everyone i would like to clarify something. upon receiving my tri clamps it looks to my that the easy flange needs a slope on the ferule in order for it to be pulled together.
but every one who makes them says hammer it flat. i have made the first part by hammering the ends of the pipe and my tri clamps will not pull it together.

any thoughts from the experts.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Plumby » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:34 am

Have you soldered your 6mm copper ring on yet? If you haven't then the tri clamps won't work as the 6mm is what the tri clamp sits on. The only reason we flare the end of the pipe is so the ring has somewhere to sit.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby woodduck » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:41 am

The clamp is tapered so you don't need a taper on the flange as the 2 edges of the 2 flanges together will catch the taper of the clamp and be forced together. You can put a slight taper on the flanges if you like, I do sometimes.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby alpha1000 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:47 am

hi thanks for the replies. the tri clamps i have are definitely not tapered.
i guess i'll have to put a taper when i solder the rings on.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby db1979 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:02 am

alpha1000 wrote:hi thanks for the replies. the tri clamps i have are definitely not tapered.
i guess i'll have to put a taper when i solder the rings on.

I think you'd only need to do that if your flanges ended up too thick but by only a small amount. In this case a taper could save them. Otherwise you'll be fine without a taper. Just more to worry about, more to stuff up.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby alpha1000 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:07 am

hi how can it work without a taper, there is nothing to pull the pipes together.the clamp just grips the two pipes but as there's no angle on the clamps or pipe it wont squeeze them together.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby woodduck » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:20 am

Hold the hammer on an angle while flattening
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