Using Soft Solder Only

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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:35 pm

scythe wrote:I will have to disagree with you there bundaboy.


That's ok because I actually agree with you because that's the way I was taught, HOWEVER!

I recently had a huge online argument over this and, whilst not totally vanquished, I certainly came off second best.

"The basic difference between soldering and brazing is the temperature necessary to melt the filler metal. That temperature is defined to be 842ºF/450ºC by the American Welding Society (AWS) but is often rounded to 840ºF. If the filler metal melts below 840ºF the process being performed is soldering. Above that temperature, the process is brazing."

Now I was hoping that is just another example of the crazy yanks being different to every one else for pure spite but I am fairly sure I came across the same definition in some of my British metal working references, if I didn't it certainly wasn't contradicted. A lot of references just say that brazing is similar to soldering but requires higher temperatures - a definition that is worse than useless.

With regards to welding, the situation is even worse. MY definition of welding is that is the same as brazing and soldering (requires a filler and flux) BUT involves the melting of the work pieces - again temperature dependent (not including spot welding and other variants).

ALAS! The definition of brazing includes the term welding so I was beaten down there as well (shakes head).

If need references to any of that I can get them (I spent hours on it trying to disprove it) but I would prefer you didn't ha ha.

If you can give references that contradicts the above I would be eternally grateful and will wade back into the battle fully armed.

Certainly, however, in my experience the process of soft soldering and hard soldering is so similar as to warrant no differentiation, results and costs are, of course, another matter entirely.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Bundaboy » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:04 pm

Ok, I suppose there is a sizeable difference between city and regional Bunnings, I only know that the last time I was up at the Mittagong store they had no lead free, and when I went to their web site (which has to be the worst in the world) I see this: (Edit: note the dreaded Pb on the label - that's what they have at MY Bunnings).
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby WTDist » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:41 am

that photo is on them all. bring it up on your phone at the service desk. maybe use the IN number. although
Not all products available in all stores, contact your nearest store for product information.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Bundaboy » Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:19 pm

WTDist wrote:that photo is on them all. bring it up on your phone at the service desk. maybe use the IN number. although
Not all products available in all stores, contact your nearest store for product information.


Ha ha yes I noticed that after I posted, at least it shows the poor quality of Bunnings' website - something common in Australia, but also something I just don't understand.

It is definitely not stocked there as I have been up twice for it.

It is likely something I can put a special order in for.

Cheers.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Bundaboy » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:02 pm

Got it! They actually had it in the wrong spot - I went through 4 staff members before I could get one to confirm on the computer that they had stock, even then I had to find it myself but at least I knew it had to be somewhere, grrrr.

I know it's a minor mishap in the scheme of things but those kind of things end up costing me a lot of time and money not to mention frustration, to the staff it's just a normal day...
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby WTDist » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:41 pm

yes they have many dumb dumbs
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Bundaboy » Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:56 pm

WTDist wrote:yes they have many dumb dumbs


They have a few good 'uns too but they are either in high demand or at lunch...
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Swedish Pride » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:00 pm

I'm pondering a 4" SS plated column using solder only.
I've mentioned it in other forums and was told TIG is the only way to go, anyone done a full SS build with solder only?

I managed to put a 4" fill port with solder and MAP Gas but being told a plated column will need to have stronger joints than solder can provide.

Anyone care to weigh in ?
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby scythe » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:31 am

It would be possible, a bit harder because you will need to heat around the join more due to the poor thermal conductivity of stainless compared to copper.

You will need to use lap joins as that is the strongest way to use soft solder which adds another level of complexity to the design stage.

TIG'ing is only easier if you have and know how to operate one, and cost prohibitive if you don't.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Doubleuj » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:17 am

Swedish Pride wrote:I'm pondering a 4" SS plated column using solder only.
I've mentioned it in other forums and was told TIG is the only way to go, anyone done a full SS build with solder only?

I managed to put a 4" fill port with solder and MAP Gas but being told a plated column will need to have stronger joints than solder can provide.

Anyone care to weigh in ?


It's friggin nearly impossible to get soft solder to flow on stainless. I've been using 56% silver solder and it works well but at $15 a stick you don't want to stuff up too many times :angry-banghead:
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby HiString » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:47 pm

Rather than start a new thread, I'll put this here as it kind of relates to Mac's photos of copper to s/steel on the second page.

The 50mm copper joiners I have are a tight press fit on s/steel ferrules (I need to use my vice as a press with them). If I follow Mac's advise on soft soldering can I expect the solder to penetrate between the ferrule and joiner or will it only adhere as a fillet around the rim of the joiner.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is whether a tight press fit would be OK without the solder. :think:
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby scythe » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:00 am

It should get in there between the metals, copper will expand more than the stainless during the process and create a small gap, solder will fill it and when its all cools again everything will be sealed.
Plus the fillet.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Zak Griffin » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:00 am

New to this soft solder business, oxy-acetylene and hard solder has been my game...

What do I need?

image.jpg


Or

image.jpg
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby WTDist » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:22 am

Zak Griffin wrote:New to this soft solder business, oxy-acetylene and hard solder has been my game...

What do I need?

image.jpg


Or

image.jpg


go this one zac. it is usually 80$ o so, think it was when another user bought it last week or so. they have sales on it every few weeks. I braze rings and soft older great although when i tried making the blockhead i gave up as it may not have been enough for 4" to 2" tee

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... mendations

a few members use them here. used t use pinpoint propane torch but couldnt make rings successfully :handgestures-thumbupleft:

If you have oxy and stuff and thats no worries then the propane one should be fine.


this one http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... mendations
looks like the bunnings one which i owned but cant be sure on flame size
https://www.bunnings.com.au/tradeflame- ... t_p5910244
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Zak Griffin » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:38 am

So I'll need MAP to soft solder 4"?
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby CaptainRedBeard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:38 am

Getting back into it Zak! That's what I like to see!

You should be able to use your oxy setup, just on a really low heat. Otherwise you could buy some hand held stuff.

I use trade flames Mapp gas setups, wide flame. Never tried any of the pinpoint flames. Although I've had issues with the torches themselves, they do the job. I've soft soldered all my bits and bobs on my 4" so far and haven't had a drama. I did notice though, if the gas bottle is below half, the max heat seems to drop also, so if you are soldering any 4" pieces, do them first with a fresh bottle, then move onto your smaller tubes, flanges etc.

Never seen that brand your looking at before though. I'm sure it would be same same.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby CaptainRedBeard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:42 am

Zak Griffin wrote:So I'll need MAP to soft solder 4"?

No, Mapp just has the optimal temp to soft solder. It could be done with butane if you had the patience, and don't have a cool breeze coming through.

You have oxy though. If your good with setting flame Temps, you can use that.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby Zak Griffin » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:50 am

I don't have oxy anymore, that's the thing... I've just moved down to adelaide, leaving all of my big tools and any chance of finishing Agrajag 500km away. I'm going to build a pretty standard 4" bubbler in the time being...

So a MAP torch will do everything I need?
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby CaptainRedBeard » Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:54 am

Zak Griffin wrote:I don't have oxy anymore, that's the thing... I've just moved down to adelaide, leaving all of my big tools and any chance of finishing Agrajag 500km away. I'm going to build a pretty standard 4" bubbler in the time being...

So a MAP torch will do everything I need?

Yep. You'll probably go through a fair amount of bottles though, but that's not unusual.

I think with my build so far, I've used 5, but I had issues with my Torch, and wasted a lot of gas trying to fix it. Also re-teaching myself to soft solder used up a bit too. If I didn't screw up and put a hole in my PC, I'd probably only need another 2 bottles to finish the build.
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Re: Using Soft Solder Only

Postby WTDist » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:44 am

5 bottles? im only 1/4 - 1/3 through my second map can and i expect i will need at least one more. You do have a very large PC that i bet took a bit. then again i still need to make a whole new PC so maybe i might need 2 more cans. I found bunnings fit the hot devil map ones and are cheaper but for a few $$ ill just stick to the same brand
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