How to.... easy, easy flange.

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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby davecuds » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:02 am

Cheers lads!
I could only find 2% at bunnings so i grabbed that and thought i would have a crack. I have a fair bit of 4mm pipe to practice on. I also got a can of Mapp gas so i will use that. No flux, super clean plenty of heat.

I also found about a meter and a half of 4" copper at the scrap yard that i impulse bought. I thought $30 was alright. If i can get this soldering down i will have a crack at a bubbler i think. I have plenty of time on my hands.....
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby davecuds » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:56 pm

Ok, so I'm doing something wrong here. I had the flame on this thing for what seemed like 10mins. I could get a bit of the 2% silver solder to melt but wouldn't go anywhere from there. I'm using map gas. Any suggestions? :text-coolphotos:
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby BackInBlack » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:27 pm

Can you turn the flame up more ?
Need to get the copper glowing to get it to flow, maybe some extra heat from another source.
BBQ or gas burner.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby davecuds » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:37 pm

Ive tried turning the flame up more but doesnt seem to have any effect. I put the ring between two bits of wood so i wouldn't lose as much heat through the vice, still nothing. I can get the solder to glow speckely red but not the copper. I have another propane canister so u think 2 at once might help? I need more hands :)

How long roughly should it take to heat up? I feel like ive already used half the canister on one join!
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby BackInBlack » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:16 pm

davecuds wrote:Ive tried turning the flame up more but doesnt seem to have any effect. I put the ring between two bits of wood so i wouldn't lose as much heat through the vice, still nothing. I can get the solder to glow speckely red but not the copper. I have another propane canister so u think 2 at once might help? I need more hands :)

How long roughly should it take to heat up? I feel like ive already used half the canister on one join!


Sounds like the torch head may be under powered, should only take about a minute.
If you have a second torch, get someone else to heat it as well.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby davecuds » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:42 pm

I was thinking the torch head. I take it there are replacements at bunnings aswell? Which one do i need to buy?
Cheers.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Sam. » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:11 pm

I would have thought the MAPP would do it, have you tried holding the flame closer than in the pic?
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby davecuds » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:31 pm

Yeah i tried every angle, distance. Its the nozzle from my other 'fat boy' propane so maybe it's not suitable for mapp. Ill try it with another heavier duty nozzle and see what happens.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Yummyrum » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:28 pm

davecuds wrote:Yeah i tried every angle, distance. Its the nozzle from my other 'fat boy' propane so maybe it's not suitable for mapp. Ill try it with another heavier duty nozzle and see what happens.

Thats youre problem right there....I'm faurly sure also that the Fatboy propane pencl torch says not to be uswd on any other gas.

Ue a TS 4000 or TS 8000 head....new world will awake you . :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby MacStill » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:42 pm

Yummyrum wrote:
davecuds wrote:Yeah i tried every angle, distance. Its the nozzle from my other 'fat boy' propane so maybe it's not suitable for mapp. Ill try it with another heavier duty nozzle and see what happens.

Thats youre problem right there....I'm faurly sure also that the Fatboy propane pencl torch says not to be uswd on any other gas.

Ue a TS 4000 or TS 8000 head....new world will awake you . :handgestures-thumbupleft:



:text-imwithstupid:

the flame in that pic does look like my propane torch's flame, even when I use MAPP on it I can't get enough heat to braze.... the TS8000 will heat that ring in about 60 seconds :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby APR » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:01 pm

davecuds wrote:Ok, so I'm doing something wrong here. I had the flame on this thing for what seemed like 10mins. I could get a bit of the 2% silver solder to melt but wouldn't go anywhere from there. I'm using map gas. Any suggestions? :text-coolphotos:


I'd say that torch is not meant for MAP-Pro gas. MAPP/MAP-Pro gas torches typically have a stainless steel end nozzle to contend with the (very slightly) higher flame temperature, and for the high output BernzOmatic MAP-Pro torches the flame shape is very different to the flame in your picture. Note, the gas you can buy today is not the original MAPP formula, it is a substitute. The BernzOmatic stuff is now sold as MAP-Pro.

I believe your torch is your problem. You need a torch that will use more gas and put out far more joules of heat energy, but using two torches will not necessarily give you the result you expect. I have been there. I have the cheap BernzOmatic all brass torch, and I have the BernzOmatic TS8000 torch, and they are chalk and cheese. It appears to me that the TS8000 torch will use around three times the gas of the cheap BernzOmatic propane torch.

Propane with the BernzOmatic TS8000 torch will get a given surface area and weight of copper hot enough to use the Tradelink supplied 15% silver hard silver solder rods that I have been buying. As the surface area and weight of copper goes up, heat soak makes it difficult to get the job hot enough to hard silver solder. It gets to the point where the rod will melt onto the job, but the rod deposit is not fully liquid and becomes lumpy.

Instead of using BernzOmatic gas, I have been using this cylinder from Bunnings. It holds more gas than the 400g BernzOmatic cylinders and is far cheaper, and I am using that gas with 15% silver hard silver solder rods. This appears to be the same cylinder as your "fat boy" cylinder.

http://www.bunnings.com.au/gasmate-outd ... -_p3170722

Here is a bit of hard soldering I did a few days ago using Propane through the TS8000 torch with 15% silver hard rods from Tradelink (item code 031118) . You can see that while I have been able to hard solder the parts together, there are lumps evident where I just cannot fully get the hard rod to liquidus, or fully liquid temperature. The tube is the same outer diameter as the outer dia of the 2 1/2 inch to 2 inch reducer, and so is butted to the reducer. I have put the ring band around the joint to overlap the join and add a bit of strength. The Stainless Steel tri-clamp flange is also attached to the copper using 15% hard silver solder rod...

Image

As a matter of interest from the BernzOmatic web site...
"MAP-Pro™: Flame temperature in air is 3,730 degrees F. Ideal for soldering larger size copper pipes, brazing, heat-treating. Higher flame temperature and better combustion intensity allows tasks to be completed more quickly. Choose a torch specially designed for MAP-Pro™ fuel."

"Propane: Flame temperature in air is 3,600 degrees F. Ideal for soldering copper pipes, heating frozen pipes and rusted nuts, softening paint and other low-heat DIY projects. A self-igniting torch is safer and more reliable than a spark. Pick a wide flame for most applications which don't need pinpoint-type heat."

"A single torch flame has many different temperatures. For any gas, the hottest part of the flame is at the tip of the inner flame, where the pale outer flame meets the darker inner flame."
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby davecuds » Fri May 02, 2014 12:55 am

Ok so i got another nozzle from a friend and still had troubles heating it. So i applied both flames, 1 from mapp gas and the other from propane fatboy and managed to get it to heat a 2% brazing rod. I got quite a nice finish in the end.
Also i am learning a few things from and old codger around the road. He's being working with copper and stainless many a year and taught me a few things.
His number 1 rule was never hit copper with metal. To be fair he has always had access to oxy and acetylene so it's much easier to anneal copper and then work it, but he gave me some good tips for working with copper.
After wrapping and cutting my 1/4 tubing around my 4" inch pipe to create my flange ring i annealed the ring and flattened it. I did this by laying it on a thick/heavy piece of flat wood (wood is important) and placing a piece of flat bar over the copper ring. And slow/gently with a hammer, tapped the flat bar, squashing the ring. Working around the ring and constantly checking to see that it is being flattened all over. This will prevent hammer marks in your ring and will produce a near on flat ring, avoiding hassles later. Now you will have a flattened ring with a half inch gap (or so) between the 2 ends. The copper is still annealed and workable so place the ring around the 4" tube and hammer gently with a piece of wood to get the ring to hug the 4" diameter again. You will not be able to get the ends to meet but when you get them close, get something cylindrical but smaller in diameter than 4" (3" would be near perfect) and tap around that to tighten the ring. Keep checking it with the 4" tube to try and get a snug fit. If the ring is slightly too big (which it almost always is..for me anyway) shave a bit off (1mm or so) with a cutting disk and angle grinder. With this method you will get a perfectly snug, flattened ring that you can hard solder and then soft solder to the 4" tube. No extra hammering needed. Produces quite a nice result if i do say so myself :)

Im a little bit tipsy, drinking whiskey with the old man. My skills are next to none but i thought i would share what i have learned. Im sure most can ignore this but for those that are interested i can go into more detail and provide pictures and explain better when i am i little more sober :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Happy distilling eveyone
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Anthoney » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:23 am

It seems you have it sorted now but my first thought was you should be using fire bricks to hold in and direct the heat. I use a brazing hearth with forced air and propane supplying two torches. The firebrick is still essential to braze quickly and economically. I use up to 50% silver.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby Brendan » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:39 am

Anthoney wrote:It seems you have it sorted now but my first thought was you should be using fire bricks to hold in and direct the heat.


Yep, always a good idea :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:08 am

Hey Dave
Just thinking of another way of using your method that may be faster.
When flattening the ring, why not have a short piece of 4" pipe with the edge bend out, as a sacrificial pipe or mandrel?
Use that to get your flange rings to the size you need.

That way you can smack it as hard as you need without worrying about damaging the pipe... cause it isn't the one it will be attached to.

DBV
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:17 am

Once you start on larger pipe the heating gets harder.
I've only used lpg and oxy, as it gets the heat in fast.

lpg and oxy set.JPG


Currently doing hard soldering on 6" pipe and it heats it without a worry.
Once you have bought it you would never go back to Acetylene as the LPG is so much cleaner.
Added to that you don't need to hire an Acetylene bottle.

If you intend doing a couple of stills,,, and I'd suggest you might. :D the investment in a good heating torch is worth it.

DBV
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby CaptainRedBeard » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:17 am

So yesty arvo thought I'd have a crack at my first easy flange. Using Macs concept, I thought I was cruising along about to make something awesome (in my mind)...This is where it went wrong for me however, I got a little excited and formed about a 10mm lip. Not realizing it wasn't right, I proceeded to beat the copper ring down over it for some 20 minutes. It took all of this time to realize it wouldn't sit right because the lip was too big :angry-banghead:
Gonna hit the lip with a grinder this arvo and try again...
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby dogbreath vodka » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:34 am

CRB post a photo, the lip may be a bit too large, but as you said it can be ground back.

The main thing is to make sure the lip is square with the tube/pipe.
These really are the ducks nuts.
Have used them on all my builds and it takes next to no time once you've done a few.

Stick to it mate, you'll be an old hand at this in no time. :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:

DBV
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby CaptainRedBeard » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:40 am

dogbreath vodka wrote:CRB post a photo, the lip may be a bit too large, but as you said it can be ground back.

The main thing is to make sure the lip is square with the tube/pipe.
These really are the ducks nuts.
Have used them on all my builds and it takes next to no time once you've done a few.

Stick to it mate, you'll be an old hand at this in no time. :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:

DBV

I'm at work at the moment, no pic to post for now. It's only practice bits of pipe when I do post, so ignore all the dirt, grit and copper build up. I'll have to master a method to make it square with the pipe, because I think my bench is off by a degree or two.
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Re: How to.... easy, easy flange.

Postby dogbreath vodka » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:47 am

Practice is a good thing ....
Smash a few out and you will see it is actually very easy to do.
As one old tradesman told me "Work with confidence".
Sometimes we get a bit timid because we haven't done something before and that can cause us not to push out the quality of work we're capable of. :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:


DBV
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