Copper "Boiler Bits"

[Woodsy71]

Evening All,

Ive been using some small copper offcuts in my 50l keg boiler as an aid to keeping track of the run. They make a great noise on the boil.

However, I will be switching over from gas to electric next week and was wondering if these bits of copper will be ok with the element.

Cheers

Woodsy

[kelbygreen]

I dont think they will work TBH. As when gas fired its heating the bottom of the keg and that is hotter then the wash which makes it bubble from the base. In a electric element the bubbles will be coming off the element and not the base so dont think it will have the same effect.

But please try and let us know. Copper is very conductive but so is water so not sure if it did bridge them if there would be a issue :think: something for a electrical engineer :P

[Urrazeb]

I wouldn't bother. Good thoughts there KG, no offence but what are you trying to get out of having 'chips'?

If your using them as an indicator for when the wash is about to boil then you shouldn't be leaving the still unattended, if your using them to remove sulphides from the product then they need to be in the vapour path, if your using them to cut the foaming down on high protein washes then I'd be looking at other solutions there - reducing charge, oil etc.

I don't think a conductor sitting between two elements that already have a good power cycle would do any damage but I ain't no sparky 8-}

[Sam.]

Boiler chips aid mostly in stopping "surge boiling" :handgestures-thumbupleft:

EDIT: From Wiki ...........Boiling chips are added in distilling flasks for distillations or boiling chemical reactions to allow a nucleation site for gradual boiling. This nucleation avoids a sudden boiling surge where the contents may overflow from the boiling flask.

[kiwikeg]

a couple of Glass marbles will do the same job, without being conductive. I don't know about copper bits and elements, I couldn't get a clear answer from a sparkie so I changed to the marbles just to be on the safe side. I think that the internal elements create a sufficient surface area for bubble formation so the marbles/chips are probably unnecessary but I still like using them. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Yummyrum]

Electrically there should be no issues as the element jacket is earthed and so should your keg so tjey are at the same electrical potential.

[Brendan]

As per Sam and Liv's post...

It's not about using as an indication. I would recommend that everybody has sharp objects in the bottom of their still to aid against surge boiling. It was always one of those standard safety practices that I got from the forums when I first started, and have never turned a boiler on without them in there...I'm surprised to see people suggesting otherwise :think:

There is no problem with an element, but they wouldn't be touching them anyway if made small enough. Just a few mangled copper offcuts twisted a bit will do the job...

Google 'Superheating'... :handgestures-thumbdown:

[Woodsy71]

a couple of Glass marbles will do the same job, without being conductive. I don't know about copper bits and elements, I couldn't get a clear answer from a sparkie so I changed to the marbles just to be on the safe side. I think that the internal elements create a sufficient surface area for bubble formation so the marbles/chips are probably unnecessary but I still like using them. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I like the glass marble idea Kiwi :handgestures-thumbupleft: I reckon i might run with that. Are you talking run of the mill kids marbles, or something different?

My reason for having them in the boiler was for no other reason than they sound cool.

And now i can add that they aid against surge boiling :-B

Appreciate your input all.

Thankyou

[Andy]

As per Sam and Liv's post...

It's not about using as an indication. I would recommend that everybody has sharp objects in the bottom of their still to aid against surge boiling. It was always one of those standard safety practices that I got from the forums when I first started, and have never turned a boiler on without them in there...I'm surprised to see people suggesting otherwise :think:

There is no problem with an element, but they wouldn't be touching them anyway if made small enough. Just a few mangled copper offcuts twisted a bit will do the job...

Google 'Superheating'... :handgestures-thumbdown:

can you please explain why its a safety practice? i dont follow :S

[Brendan]

Google 'Superheating' Andy...it can be very dangerous and has to do with boiling a liquid in a vessel with only smooth surfaces where there are no nucleation sites. You need to break the surface tension by inducing bubbles and essentially breaking tension from the bottom...you are basically forcing bubbles to form which breaks the surface tension on top...without this, a liquid can boil past it's boiling point while the surface tension supresses any bubbles...can lead to an explosion of sorts of the liquid (not a fire explosion, but a surge or burst of the liquid).

It used to be everyday reading on all the forums along with don't use plastics etc., but has seemed to have dissolved and not been as prominent. For me, it's an everyday safety practice along with the use of plastics, grounding my still and not charging a boiler with more than 40%abv...I won't boil without them, but maybe that's just me.

[Andy]

Google 'Superheating' Andy...it can be very dangerous and has to do with boiling a liquid in a vessel with only smooth surfaces where there are no nucleation sites. You need to break the surface tension by inducing bubbles and essentially breaking tension from the bottom...you are basically forcing bubbles to form which breaks the surface tension on top...without this, a liquid can boil past it's boiling point while the surface tension supresses any bubbles...can lead to an explosion of sorts of the liquid (not a fire explosion, but a surge or burst of the liquid).

It used to be everyday reading on all the forums along with don't use plastics etc., but has seemed to have dissolved and not been as prominent. For me, it's an everyday safety practice along with the use of plastics, grounding my still and not charging a boiler with more than 40%abv...I won't boil without them, but maybe that's just me.

wouldn't the differing densities and the differing vapour pressure of the wash create nucleation sites within the liquid and the liquids with the lowest vapour pressure would constantly be breaking the surface tension?

[Brendan]

You might very well be right mate. Like I said, it used to be one of those widely advertised things so I have just always followed it to avoid any risk...no harm doing it.

I didn't think there would be different densities and vapour pressures as a boiler charge becomes a homogenous liquid of its many components which then has only one boiling point at any instant (which obviously changes as soon as the tiniest amount of vapour leaves it)...I'm just thinking aloud here, I don't know :doh:

[kiwikeg]

Yep glass marbles, or small pebbles about that size if you prefer, :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Andy]

You might very well be right mate. Like I said, it used to be one of those widely advertised things so I have just always followed it to avoid any risk...no harm doing it.

I didn't think there would be different densities and vapour pressures as a boiler charge becomes a homogenous liquid of its many components which then has only one boiling point at any instant (which obviously changes as soon as the tiniest amount of vapour leaves it)...I'm just thinking aloud here, I don't know :doh:

yeah i guess that makes sense as there are multiple miscible liquids in the wash making it homogeneous. my previous comment was incorrect.

I know this will make me sound like a dick, but I dont see it as a safety issue. if you have 50L of wash in a 50L boiler the superheating will lead to puking. but you shouldn't have that much wash in the boiler anyway- leaving sufficient head room will be just as effective as marbles or bits in your boiler. i would prefer to lead the room, or add some oil for assurance then having things rattle around my boiler. i guess its just different ways of doing things- and learning different ways is what the forum is for :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[kiwikeg]

Thankyou for your post cuztimrsaid. Yor description of what I try to achieve with boiling chips or marbles is accurate, except that marbles will do nothing, in my experience toy glass marbles form micro bubbles readily, and any rolling helps the formation of bubbles on the bottom of the pot. If you try a side by side test in a pan on a stovetop you will see a clear demonstration of this.
But as I said small pebbles will work just as well.... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_chip
Also I like the noise that the chips/stones make as a indicator during the heatup of the run as I have no thermometers on my rigs.