pectin

[googe]

I wasn't sure where to put this?. Anyway, was reading something the other day about pectin and distilling and headaches. I got the impression headaches from spirits was caused by pectin?. From what I understand pectin is only in fruits?. Then how could it be in rum, vodka, whiskey ect ect. Can someone shed some light on this for me please. Thanks cheers

[Kimbo]

I wasn't sure where to put this?. Anyway, was reading something the other day about pectin and distilling and headaches. I got the impression headaches from spirits was caused by pectin?. From what I understand pectin is only in fruits?. Then how could it be in rum, vodka, whiskey ect ect. Can someone shed some light on this for me please. Thanks cheers

CROW where are ya mate (He's the best one to answer this ;-) )

[SBB]

Unless the distilling process or the fermentation process changes the pectin into some other nasty shit ( which it could do) I doubt its going to give you a hangover, jam is full of it , its what makes Jam thicken in the cooking process. Ive never had a headachefrom eating Jam. Apples are one of the richest fruits in pectin( never had a headache from them either) things like Mulberries are low in pectin and so if making mulberry jam you need to add pectin. You can by it at most supermarkets..or used to be able to, or you can make your own from stewing up apples. Only reason I know this shit is that I used to make a heap of Mulberry jam each year.
Hasn't really answered the question though :sad:

[Kimbo]

from what i can recall, Pectin results in a high methanol content. I could be wrong but I'm sure I heard something like that. ;-)

[Sam.]

You can buy pectinase to help break down the pectin for brewing purposes for wines etc.

Pectin I believe is only in fruit.

The thread on the methanol coming over with it is different again. But no there shouldn't be any pectin if you are using sugar or molasses or grain.

[Cane Toad]

I'm pretty sure you're right Kimbo. I'm pretty sure that you use pectin to break down fruit to release all the fermentable sugars,but in doing this it also creates a lot more methanol.
As you said Kimbo,the fruit guru would be best off answering this,he's on holidays ATM over in some exotic island,surrounded by young nubile dancing girls,that believe that their only reason for being here is to make Crow a happy little camper :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[googe]

Thanks for the info fellas , sounds like I'm not on the right path!. Just been trying to understand where the bad stuff in final product is coming from or how it's produced. And why it gives hangovers or tastes bad. Was reading this before, I learnt something! Lol. Why is learning so much reading damit :laughing-rolling: .

Aldehydes

Acetaldehyde (ethanal)

Another contributing factor is the presence of products from the breakdown of ethanol by liver enzymes. Ethanol is converted to acetaldehyde by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, and then from acetaldehyde to acetic acid by the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. Acetaldehyde is more toxic than alcohol and is responsible for many hangover symptoms; Acetaldehyde (ethanal) is between 10 and 30 times more toxic than alcohol itself. [8]

These two reactions also require the conversion of NAD + to NADH. With an excess of NADH, three enzymes of the Citric Acid Cycle are inhibited (citrate synthase, isocitrate dehydrogenase, and alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase) essentially shutting it down. Pyruvate (the end product of glycolysis) starts to accumulate, and the excess NADH drives lactate dehydrogenase to produce lactate from pyruvate in order to regenerate NAD+ and sustain life. This diverts pyruvate from other pathways such as gluconeogenesis, thereby impairing the ability of the liver to compensate for a drop in blood glucose levels, especially for the brain. Because glucose is the primary energy source of the brain, this lack of glucose (hypoglycemia) contributes to symptoms such as fatigue, weakness, mood disturbances, and decreased attention and concentration. [citation needed]

Alcohol consumption can result in depletion of the liver's supply of glutathione [9] and other reductive detoxification agents, [10] reducing its ability to effectively remove acetaldehyde and other toxins from the bloodstream. Additionally, alcohol induces the CYP2E1 enzyme, which itself can produce additional toxins and free radicals. [11]

Most people of East Asian descent have a mutation in their alcohol dehydrogenase gene that makes this enzyme unusually effective at converting ethanol to acetaldehyde, and about half of such people also have a form of acetaldehyde dehydrogenase that is less effective at converting acetaldehyde to acetic acid. [12] This combination causes them to suffer from alcohol flush reaction, in which acetaldehyde accumulates after drinking, leading to immediate and severe hangover symptoms. These people are therefore less likely to become alcoholics. [13][14]

Formaldehyde

In addition, it is thought that the presence of other alcohols (fusel oils) and other by-products of alcoholic fermentation (congeners), exaggerate many of the symptoms; this probably accounts for the mitigation of the effects when distilled alcohol, particularly vodka, is consumed instead. [15] A 2009 study provided evidence that darker-coloured liquors, such as bourbon, cause worse hangovers than lighter-coloured liquors, such as vodka. The higher amount of congeners found in darker liquors compared to lighter ones was indicated as the cause. [16] Studies that attempt to compare hangover producing potential and hangover severity of different alcoholic drinks suggest the following ordering (starting with the least hangover-inducing): distilled ethanol diluted in fruit juice; beer; vodka; gin; white wine; whisky; rum; red wine; brandy. [17][18] In a 2006 study, an average of 14 standard drinks (330 ml bottles) of beer was needed to produce a hangover, compared with only 7 to 8 drinks of wine or liquor. [18] One potent congener is methanol. It is naturally formed in small quantities during fermentation and it can be accidentally concentrated by improper distillation techniques. Metabolism of methanol produces an extremely toxic compound, formaldehyde; however, its metabolism is suppressed when ethanol is present in the bloodstream. This is thought to provide a mechanism for hangover that starts when blood alcohol content approaches zero and can be "cured" by alcohol.

[invisigoth]

yeh, methanol if formed from the breakdown of pectin. pectinase isn't so much to gain access to sugars, it's more to result in a clearer wash, because the pectin makes fruit wines cloudy. your fruit already has methanol to begin with before it ever sees any yeast. from memory i think pears were supposed to have the highest levels. there is one school of thought that says that using pectinase breaks down the pectin so that it can't be converted to methanol. there is another school of thought that using pectinase increases methanol production because it's a product of pectin breakdown.

clear as mud? :twisted:

[maddogpearse]

The word “pectin” pops it’s head up from time to time when browsing through fruit and veg's section. There’s actually a lot of information right here about it, but it’s so spread out that I thought it would be nice to condense it for anyone who wants to know about it one day. If there is any error within this, please let me know. This is google’s knowledge, not mine.

Pectin occurs naturally in the cell walls of plants that grow on the ground (as opposed living in water, or rocks or in trees) It’s often used as a gelling agent in Jams and jellies. Pectins help "glue" plant cells together and allows fruit to remain firm and to retain its shape. When fruit becomes over ripe the pectin is broken down to simple sugars. As a result, the fruit loses stiffness and becomes soft and yielding.

We care about pectin, because when fermented it produces Methanol. Pectin is mainly composed of methyl esters of galactose. When pectin breaks down, by enzymes introduced by microorganisms, or deliberately introduced, the methyl esters combine with water to produce methanol.
Pectinase is an enzyme that breaks down pectin. Commonly referred to as pectic enzymes, these have been used in wine production since the 1960’s. The function of pectinase in brewing is to help break down the plant material to help with flavor extraction from the must. It also helps make a clear wine, as pectin can cause a haze or slight cloudiness. I guess that’s why red wine gives me a raging hangover. It has methanol in it.

A grain or sugar based wort on the other hand, in a clean fermenter with a yeast culture from a well aerated source, will result in very little or no methanol formed.

Low Pectin Level plants include,
• Apricots
• Blueberries
• Cherries
• Elderberries
• Peaches
• Pears
• Pineapple
• Raspberries
• Strawberries

High Pectin level plants include,
• Apples
• Citrus rinds
• Crap apples
• Cranberries
• Currants
• Plums
• Grapes
• Quinces

While definitive values are hard to obtain from the research I’ve done, some typical levels of pectin in plants are (fresh weight):
• apples, 1–1.5%
• apricots, 1%
• cherries, 0.4%
• oranges, 0.5–3.5%
• citrus peels, 30%

Most documents conclude that when fermenting with plants high in pectin the following is good practice…
• Ferment at lower temperatures.
• Add no extra enzymes
• Aim for 12% or less ABV
• Take larger heads cuts. Methanol has a Boiling point of 64.7 degrees. Ethanol is 78.37

Hope this helps some. Feel free to make additions to my notes.

[warramungas]

Don't care how 'pure' your ethanol is, drink enough of it and you're going to end up with a hangover. Remember we're purposely drinking a solvent. Small amounts are like any other poison and we can tolerate it without any ill effects. Consumed in large amounts, well that's never going to end well.

[rumdidlydum]

Thanks for the info maddog :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[maddogpearse]

Don't care how 'pure' your ethanol is, drink enough of it and you're going to end up with a hangover. Remember we're purposely drinking a solvent. Small amounts are like any other poison and we can tolerate it without any ill effects. Consumed in large amounts, well that's never going to end well.

My post had nothing to do with making methanol easier to drink. It was about making people aware of when they may be likely to produce methanol, and if the likelihood is high, how to best manage it. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Shiftynev]

Well done Maddog, great bit of info to keep in mind when preparing a batch for a run.
Thanks

[warramungas]

Don't care how 'pure' your ethanol is, drink enough of it and you're going to end up with a hangover. Remember we're purposely drinking a solvent. Small amounts are like any other poison and we can tolerate it without any ill effects. Consumed in large amounts, well that's never going to end well.

My post had nothing to do with making methanol easier to drink. It was about making people aware of when they may be likely to produce methanol, and if the likelihood is high, how to best manage it. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I wouldn't drink methanol or recommend even small amounts. Why I try not to drink commercial spirits. :))
So long as you are meticulous with your foreshots methanol quantity in you drinking spirits should all be the same. Very little.