Carter head discussion

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Carter head discussion

Postby res » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:06 am

I'm curious to hear about the different configurations people are running their Carter heads in, and how there using them. :-B
Some possibilities that come to mind are:

1. -Pot still, might include a reflux condenser for easy basket changes.
DSC_0399.JPG


2. -Above some plates.
onTop.jpg


3. -Below some plates.
Carter bubbler.JPG


I did my a sacrificial run a couple of nights ago using option 2. Collection speed was good and I believe I even gained a point or two in ABV% However there was quite a lot of reflux accumulating in the collection sight glass. Not sure what's considered a normal amount. I believe Mac has stated this option in not optimal for anything smaller than a 6 inch still, I'm guessing because of the amount of reflux build up? :whistle:
This brings up a interesting question I hadn't previously considered; Draining this product is a bit of a worry, in my case we're talking boiling hot alcohol at 93 odd %. Not the kind of thing I'd be happy doing if I ran gas or had any open flames around. Do people have any clever solutions here?
I also wondered if anyone just let it fill right up to presumably start flowing back to the boiler or plates?
I thought whatever configuration is best in the end a bit of insulation couldn't go astray so I'm going to trim up some of my insulation off cuts from the boiler and mashing vessels to that end.
I love hear any discussion on these points or any other general storys of Mr Carter. :D
Cheers lads.
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:29 am

Hi Res solution :roll: (My sick sense of humour)

Haven't had a lot of opportunity to run mine as it makes a hell of a lot of booze each time.
75+ ltrs of 40% in the boiler can work out to plenty in one run.

Anyway.
The amount of reflux in the glass SG does get up a bit during a run.
But it isn't huge amounts.

I just put it aside until the next run and put it back through the boiler and/or use some of it to colour the vodka I'm making.
DSCN5607 (Copy).JPG


IF you decide to run it back into the boiler - you would need an air lock of some type to stop the vapour from the boiler going up into the SG.
There is a very small amount of pressure there that I suspect would push past the liquid in the SG.
Just a theory I have as I tried to put liquid back into the boiler while it was running once.
Big mistake. :violence-smack:

I would suggest running a Carter Head on electricity, as gas just has too many possibilities regarding a naked flame.

DBV
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby Zak Griffin » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:49 am

Could you put another ball valve on the top of the boiler with stainless or copper pipe coming down from the bottom of the Carter head? So to drain you'd. Have the bottom tap closed, top tap open, and then close the top and open the bottom to let it back into the boiler...
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby Meatheadinc » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:51 am

Zak I run a stainless return line and it work great :handgestures-thumbupleft: but I return to the plates above the boiler
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby res » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:52 am

dogbreath vodka wrote:IF you decide to run it back into the boiler - you would need an air lock of some type to stop the vapour from the boiler going up into the SG.
There is a very small amount of pressure there that I suspect would push past the liquid in the SG.
Just a theory I have as I tried to put liquid back into the boiler while it was running once.
Big mistake.


Cheers DBV, still have your eyebrows I hope. ;-)
What I ment was allowing the reflux to return on it's own by filling up the bottom half of the carter head and then it would flow back down the vapor in tube. :shifty: I feel there is probably something wrong with this idea, perhaps the vapor pressure would be to much to overcome. Not sure :think:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby Meatheadinc » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:10 am

I don't believe that will work as the carter head has an internal thumper tube that diverts flow down and creates a thumper in the fluid bath

Without this internal thumper tube the reflux may be allowed to drain naturally back to the boiler but I believe would not be optimum
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:22 pm

:text-+1:
Meatheadinc wrote:I don't believe that will work as the carter head has an internal thumper tube that diverts flow down and creates a thumper in the fluid bath

Without this internal thumper tube the reflux may be allowed to drain naturally back to the boiler but I believe would not be optimum


I agree with Zak -
Zak Griffin wrote:Could you put another ball valve on the top of the boiler with stainless or copper pipe coming down from the bottom of the Carter head? So to drain you'd. Have the bottom tap closed, top tap open, and then close the top and open the bottom to let it back into the boiler...


It's a way of keeping hot high % alcohol out of reach of a naked flame if you are using gas.

You would still have to watch how full the SG was getting.


DBV
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby RefluxEd » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:41 pm

I'm not keen on the Carter head design because of the inherent dangers and problems. Look away for a moment and before you know it its overflowing back the other way and making a teabag out of your botanicals with yucky tainting muck. :crying-blue:
I've been using this:
Gin Head.jpg

The vapour infusion from a neutral spirit seems to give a cleaner, lighter gin. The heavier oils fall back into the still and just don't make it back up again. There is definitely no tainting of the gin from these, even when going down to a bit under 20% ABV to get the heavier rose components if doing a Hendricks style gin. They just don't come through. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby Zak Griffin » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:45 pm

That's all well and good mate, but the Carter head lets you do infusions that and run strategies that you just can't get with a basic gin basket.

We'll keep this thread on the topic of Carter Heads, yeah?
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby RefluxEd » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:05 pm

dogbreath vodka wrote:...IF you decide to run it back into the boiler - you would need an air lock of some type to stop the vapour from the boiler going up into the SG.
There is a very small amount of pressure there that I suspect would push past the liquid in the SG. ...
DBV


You could run it back into boiler via a port that would be below the surface of the liquid in the boiler, thereby ensuring that there would be no pressure to send vapour up into the sight glass.

(Back on topic) :clap:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:10 pm

RefluxEd wrote:I'm not keen on the Carter head design because of the inherent dangers and problems. Look away for a moment and before you know it its overflowing back the other way and making a teabag out of your botanicals with yucky tainting muck. :crying-blue:
Just have to ask respectfully - Have you run a Carter Head?

Any still should not be left.
It takes quite some time for the CH to fill up. So the "inherent dangers" are only there if you ignore the basic rules of distilling.


The vapour infusion from a neutral spirit seems to give a cleaner, lighter gin. The heavier oils fall back into the still and just don't make it back up again. There is definitely no tainting of the gin from these, even when going down to a bit under 20% ABV to get the heavier rose components if doing a Hendricks style gin. They just don't come through. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

My experience with rose oils is they are one of the first and lightest oils to come over.
To get a decent rose flavour in a vodka I made - I had to fill the botanical basket absolutely full.
Even then the rose flavour petered out very quickly.

The gins I've made are quite light.
To get a heavier gin using a Carter Head you need to put some of the oils in the SG thumper into the finished product.



Have a look at the Doctors threads on his Carter Head.
Very informative reading.

DBV

Was typing as Reflux Ed was posting - thanks RE I see your point on that. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:23 pm

I've been trying to find Doc's photos of his Carter Head.
He has a deep bubbler under his glass module and that then drains to a keg.
The idea being that it keeps the flavours in play longer and draining those flavours off less often.

Just can't find the photos.

DBV
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby MacStill » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:32 pm

dogbreath vodka wrote:I've been trying to find Doc's photos of his Carter Head.
He has a deep bubbler under his glass module and that then drains to a keg.
The idea being that it keeps the flavours in play longer and draining those flavours off less often.

Just can't find the photos.

DBV


Doc just runs an extra sight glass tee in his oil reservoir :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby MacStill » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:40 pm

dogbreath vodka wrote:
RefluxEd wrote:I'm not keen on the Carter head design because of the inherent dangers and problems. Look away for a moment and before you know it its overflowing back the other way and making a teabag out of your botanicals with yucky tainting muck. :crying-blue:
Just have to ask respectfully - Have you run a Carter Head?

Any still should not be left.
It takes quite some time for the CH to fill up. So the "inherent dangers" are only there if you ignore the basic rules of distilling.


The vapour infusion from a neutral spirit seems to give a cleaner, lighter gin. The heavier oils fall back into the still and just don't make it back up again. There is definitely no tainting of the gin from these, even when going down to a bit under 20% ABV to get the heavier rose components if doing a Hendricks style gin. They just don't come through. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

My experience with rose oils is they are one of the first and lightest oils to come over.
To get a decent rose flavour in a vodka I made - I had to fill the botanical basket absolutely full.
Even then the rose flavour petered out very quickly.

The gins I've made are quite light.
To get a heavier gin using a Carter Head you need to put some of the oils in the SG thumper into the finished product.



Have a look at the Doctors threads on his Carter Head.
Very informative reading.

DBV

Was typing as Reflux Ed was posting - thanks RE I see your point on that. :handgestures-thumbupleft:


I was like :laughing-rolling:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:40 pm

Thanks Mac
Has been too long since I saw the photos.
:handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby RefluxEd » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:41 pm

Hi DBV,
I have a mate with a Carter head, I've only been with him when he was using it for making gin and was a bit worried about what to do with what was in the sight glass. He tends to run it fairly fast, so a yabber can make one lose attention and before you know it it's rather full. As you say, never leave a still and always pay attention.

For rose infusion I use rosebuds from the local Asian grocery. In a 45 litre run of 45% neutral with my setup, the first taste of rose always starts around 30% and gets stronger until 20% when I quit because it starts to taste watery approaching 15%. I haven't used rose petals yet, it maybe that they act differently.
In a run like that I use 3g which is 6 rosebuds. So far the gin basket has never been more than a quarter full with all botanicals. BTW, they are always broken up first with a mortar and pestle to get max flavour.

I'll have to go to a Carter still when I increase in volume as it gives flexibilty, can allow almost continuous operation and allows you to change botanicals on the fly. The Doc's changeover system is a brilliant idea that I'll definitely add to mine when I do it.
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby dogbreath vodka » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:55 pm

Off Topic (sort of)

RefluxEd wrote:
For rose infusion I use rosebuds from the local Asian grocery. In a 45 litre run of 45% neutral with my setup, the first taste of rose always starts around 30% and gets stronger until 20% when I quit because it starts to taste watery approaching 15%. I haven't used rose petals yet, it maybe that they act differently.
If I'm reading this right - you put your botanicals in at the start of the run?
Using your current set up - why not make/put a basket in the 4" pipe like on the CH's design?
That way you don't put the botanicals in until the abv is up to the 90's.
Then you don't lose the lighter oils in the lower abv.
Mac sells them for around the $90 mark and you wouldn't have to change much to fit it. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
So long as you have the ability to put the still in total reflux so you can get to the bot. basket it would work well.

Just a thought.




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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby RefluxEd » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:17 pm

For making gin I use 92% clean spirit which has been stripped and then refluxed from a TPW. It is diluted with rainwater back to 45% for doing a gin run. There are no heads or tails to contend with so you can concentrate on the flavours you want.
I use a plain cotton dilly bag with the botanicals in it which sits on the mesh plate at the bottom. A gin basket would be nice and would fit, it's one of them gunna do things.
I can replace with a fresh dilly bag at any time through the run by removing the lid, whipping out the first bag by its draw string and dropping in a second, although having tried this once I find that the flavours change through the run and that the best gin is the sum of the whole. Adding another bag makes the citrus predominate, while doing the whole run with one bag gives a more balanced flavour. The balance of ingredients in the second bag would need to be different to avoid this.
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby the Doctor » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:03 am

Firstly sorry that i have been away from this thread for a while, but it has been a busy few months... Now a couple of notes about the carter head. Mac noted that I have modified my head by adding a
t section sight glass below the Carter head.... This works for me as it allows me to thump the vapour through very aggressively...this promotes a lot of atomisation and carriage of the oils back into the botanical basket ( only to reflux out again ) I find this agressive bubbling results in wet grass/herb and juicy fruit flavours ( sweet/florals ) in the first 30 minutes of the basket. Later in the run the dryer more astringent flavours come through I usually drain the head as i aproach the end of the basket to promote the woodier and more bitter botanicals.

What few people realise is that using a Carter Head and naught but basket timing, temperature and take off speed a great number of styles can be made with exactly the same ingredients. The control is phenomenal, few delve into it.... Reyka in Iceland and us both run our vodka through the carter head loaded with amorphous volcanic glass. So your carter head can be used for a vodka too. They really are a very versatile piece of kit.

Cheers
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Re: Carter head discussion

Postby res » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:28 pm

Meatheadinc wrote:I don't believe that will work as the carter head has an internal thumper tube that diverts flow down and creates a thumper in the fluid bath

Without this internal thumper tube the reflux may be allowed to drain naturally back to the boiler but I believe would not be optimum


It seems to me that the fluid in the sight glass would rise up the thump tube at the same level as the fluid around it :think: The pressure in the column being the only hindrance, and I wouldn't think it enough to stop it? It would appear a very convent option for dealing with the reflux, requiring no extra kit or modification. If it worked it would be a constant slow dribble just like the RC and should still be similar ABV% to whats on the plates...maybe :-B
Do people foresee any reason not to try it, dangers etc?
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