Spirit run speed querys

[Stoney]

I looked for this info yesterday (not for the first time) and am yet to find a definitive answer, mainly because at a guess, there isn't one. So apologys for long post but I am sure it can help someone, including me.

i am pretty much a noob to spirit runs having only done one on a rum wash previously, yesterdays was a CFW spirit run.
now I am running just a vanilla style pot still, keg with a 2" column on lpg, a 3 ring burner puts out around 7kW max(converted from BTU) so it is never used at that rate apart from preheating.
the rings are called 1,2 and 4 and thats how I use them, once nearly up to temp I would usually just run on the 2 burner alone and that not on maximum. I would say then thats about a 1500W equivalent.
I have a digital probe thermometer at the top of the column, just to be clear, I do not use it to 'run' the still but I find it a very useful tool.


yesterdays run, about 15 litres of stripped CFW at 38%, preheated till a low boil, as column temp starts to rise, foreshots jar in place, first drop out of condenser I switch to low power. burner 1 only. allow still to drip out about 1 or 2 drips a second, taste .. burning sensation, usually an aroma of benzene and/or acetone at this point but there was not much of this yesteerday, collected about 150ml of definite foreshots till burning taste stopped.

swapped to jar 1, 600ml jars but collected only about 100ml in first 2 jars. added these to feints.
column temp has stabilised at around 83C

swap to burner 2 and increase heat up to 1500W or so. at jar 5 I went to full heat on burner 2.
collect next 10 jars with about 500ml per jar, maybe 7 or 8 minutes per jar. column temp has been very slowly rising and is now 86.5C (old fridge next to me, i take notes with whiteboard pen), jar 9 was still 84.9 so there is a relatively rapid rise between jar 9 to 12 where the taste changes.

every jar tastes different, first 4 jars (3-7) taste amazing but around jar 8 its quite neutral in comparison and
around jar 12 a sourness is creeping back in to the distillate. output rate is dropping and column temp hops up pretty quickly to around 87C about here I added burner 1 back in as well to continue collecting at a decent trickle.

I have been measuring distillate with a refractometer t/out. problem was that ambient was 34C and it seems the refractometer reads way low at this temperature, in general it was telling me it was around 48%. was not aware of this level of inaccuracy and decided on jar 5 when I upped the gas that I was going to run the spirit a third time to get cask strength, unaware it akready was.

jar 15 another rapid temp rise, refractometer shows strength dropping. added in burner 4 on low and collected 3 more jars until refractometer said 20% (which i now know is likely closer to 30% still)

last jar, jar 18 turned cloudy .. jars 1,2, 16,17 and 18 went to feints.

I am yet to do cuts, still have jars seperate.

so questions .. what would you do differently ? apart from not bother writing down the temperature ;)
I have been told in 'whats in shed today' thread that I collected waaay to fast. I agree in principle, but I am still not sure what speed to run at.
its hard to go on taste if you don't really know what to look for, every jar tastes different as I said, so what would running slower accomplish ? more different ? I would blend in some of what I consider heads and tails anyway, they have all the flavour.
I went faster than usual due to decision to run again but now I am wondering if I really need to.

I might sit down with a bottle of water, a shot glass and a pipette.

[CaptainRedBeard]

I have a home made 2" copper pot, running off a 3 ring burner, however I can only have 2 burner controls, 1 for the smallest inner ring, and 1 for the 2 outer.

When I spirit run, once the column right before the PC is hot, I turn off the inner burner, and turn down the outers until the flame is only 10mm~.

I collect in 300mL jars, and normally(I time this, and set an egg timer) it takes 8 min, 40 sec per jar. So I'd agree with what you have read, your running a bit too fast. However this is how I do it, and your still may be different, or your taste might be different also.

Hopefully your cuts aren't smeared, and you get yourself a nice bit of likker :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[kiwikeg]

Stoney said... "500ml per jar, maybe 7 or 8 minutes per jar"...... thats you problem running it too fast way way to fast.
Low and slow on spirit run. Temp way down low on the burner and it dribbling nice and slow from the spout.
Collect in smaller 200ml jars or clean beer stubbies.
I also suspect from your reported totals collected you may have charged your boiler with lowines at more than 40% abv. :naughty:

[BIG D]

Stoney to briefly explain why you run slow on a spirit run heads is light alcohol and will boil off 1st, hearts is the goodness and comes out next, tails is heavier and boils off last. Now pots smear anyway but the faster you run the more smearing you will get ultimately returning less usable alcohol. Now for your taste test im guessing the first part of your run that has the flavour is slightly sweet?

[Stoney]

Stoney said... "500ml per jar, maybe 7 or 8 minutes per jar"...... thats you problem running it too fast way way to fast.
Low and slow on spirit run. Temp way down low on the burner and it dribbling nice and slow from the spout.
Collect in smaller 200ml jars or clean beer stubbies.
I also suspect from your reported totals collected you may have charged your boiler with lowines at more than 40% abv. :naughty:

I can't make good cuts decisions with 18 jars let alone 50 lol
I just happen to have 100 or so fowlers jars and they do the job, they hold 600ml I think but I sometimes only use them to 100 or 300ml.

charge strength was based on a flawed refractometer reading of 38% and estimate of 15 litres may be quite a bit out as I had a 5l demi and 2 earthenware pots that I don't know how much they hold lol. was probably closer to 18 litres in but strength I now do not know. I cannot see it being much over 40% in reality, it was low wines from stripping runs, perhaps it was 45%, not sure. my previous averages taken with alcometer were usually 42% to 45% and I woukd chuck in a few litres of water.

I realise I need a temperature compensated refractometer for a queensland summer now.

[Stoney]

Stoney to briefly explain why you run slow on a spirit run heads is light alcohol and will boil off 1st, hearts is the goodness and comes out next, tails is heavier and boils off last. Now pots smear anyway but the faster you run the more smearing you will get ultimately returning less usable alcohol. Now for your taste test im guessing the first part of your run that has the flavour is slightly sweet?

yep, I get that, hence I ran really slow for foreshots and fairly sliw first 2 small jars until the lip stinging stuff stops.
I just tried a little of jar 3 in water and cant detect any sweetness as such.

knocking me head on the wall now lol.

alcometer on jar 3 83%, correcting for temp 27.7C means 79%, refractometer says its 62%

jar 3 very strong flavour,
jar 4 little sourness
jar 5, aromatic, sweet and sour
jar 6, milder version of 5
jar 7, hint of bitumen, missus says vodka lol
jar 8, mild flavour, hint of sweetness
jar 9 very neutral.
jar 10 same
jar 11 hint of sour again
jar 12, slight licorice type odor and almost bitter taste
jar 13 smells like flowers, almost a rose note, some sweetness here.
jar 14, slightly fruity and flowery, licorice taste
jar 15 hint of vomit smell, butyric acid.

jar 15 measures 63% corrected.
none of the jars taste particularly nice, all are very mild in reality apart from the first 3

[Zak Griffin]

Are you running a whiskey or some kind of gin?!

My cuts smell something like;

Heads
Heads
Heads
Heartsy Heads
Headsy Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Tailsy Hearts
Heartsy Tails
Tails
Tails
Tails

Bitumen, flowers and licorice? :wtf:

I think you can probably lose the refractometer, it's obviously not very accurate ;-) And yeah, run it slower, a lot slower. Sounds like you're smearing your heads and tails through the whole run :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[CaptainRedBeard]

Sounds like you're smearing your heads and tails through the whole run :handgestures-thumbupleft:

:text-+1:

[BIG D]

Sounds like you're smearing your heads and tails through the whole run :handgestures-thumbupleft:

:text-+1:

I agree I would re run it with your next lot. ;-)

[choppy]

I collect in old tomato paste jars at 300mls cuts. I aim for 2L per hour. It generally takes me two goes to get my cuts, but that is just because I am still learning and don't want to get it wrong. I err on side of caution and feint more than perhaps I should.
My advice is the same as those above, slow it down and test your cuts multiple times if you're not sure. Even get a mates second opinion on your cuts - sober of course

[Stoney]

Are you running a whiskey or some kind of gin?!

My cuts smell something like;

Heads
Heads
Heads
Heartsy Heads
Headsy Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Hearts
Tailsy Hearts
Heartsy Tails
Tails
Tails
Tails

Bitumen, flowers and licorice? :wtf:

I think you can probably lose the refractometer, it's obviously not very accurate ;-) And yeah, run it slower, a lot slower. Sounds like you're smearing your heads and tails through the whole run :handgestures-thumbupleft:

heh, cheers.
rum was easy, had no problems really determining cuts. the strip runs were easy to, I could have cut them.
like i said, nothing past the first 3 jars has a lot of flavour at all, the aroma is pretty subtle.
i actually much preferred the flavour of the strip runs.

the refractometer works just fine at 20C, might be ok to use again in April or so. :angry-banghead:

ok, decision made, going to run it a third time slow. I am tempted to put the reflux column on and just rerun for neutral.

[CaptainRedBeard]

Don't forget a lot of the flavor comes from oaking. Some suggest oaking is 70% of the flavor profile.

[Stoney]

After leaving it all in the jars for a week, I went back and did it the old school method, no diluting with water, just dunk a finger in each jar and taste. Much easier.
Decided then that the whole lot I had left was fine though the first jar was suspect, poured them all in a demojohn and it is about 4.5litres all up.
I need to source some more woodchips, but it tastes pretty reasonable from the demi right now.

TLDR; I give up on diluting with water to taste test for cuts,

[Muppet]

I wouldn't mate, The water makes the actual taste pop out as high proof alc always tastes like solvent.

[Stoney]

When I started this thread I was really getting the acts of blending and making cuts confused in a way.

It did bring out the subtletys that I couldnt taste at full strength, I just have no idea how to use those flavours for blending purposes .. yet, may come with experience but I suspect I will never know what to do with them. So it was pretty dufficult to make a decision when diluted.
As far as making cuts goes, no problem, at full strength I know what I like and don't like, what I had left was pretty effectively cut, so I used the lot.
After a bit of ageing on some tiasted oak then I can have a taste and if there is something I need to knock back on, then I can try it next batch. Without any experience in blending whiskey, I am just going in blind, hopefully this batch can be a reference of sorts.
Next time, I will run slower, lot to learn with pot still products..

[CaptainRedBeard]

Blending is all to personal taste I think Stoney. I'm a fan of hearts only bourbon whiskey, with a nice med. toast. I tried on my latest batch blending some late heads in, and it hasn't worked out to my taste, but it's still only early days for it, so the age in process hopefully will turn it into a winner.
Goodluck on your next, slower run :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Urrazeb]

I'd worry more about running the still properly first rather than blending.

You cannot make effective cuts on smeared spirit.

Toothpick size stream is all you need to aim for on a pot still run... Adjust heat until the output is a thin unbroken stream - easy. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Stoney]

I'd worry more about running the still properly first rather than blending.

You cannot make effective cuts on smeared spirit.

Toothpick size stream is all you need to aim for on a pot still run... Adjust heat until the output is a thin unbroken stream - easy. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I did go for toothpick, any less and it would pulse and try to miss the jar by sticking to the outlet and trying to follow the pipe back uphill. I did add another copper pipe and bent the end downwards to meet my jars though. a bit less angle and stream would change.

I actually didn't run as fast as I originally thought, the jars only held 400ml each and not my estimated 500. The 7 or 8 minutes a jar is just a complete guess, will time it next time. I do know the run took about 2 hours after it started and collected a bit over 5 litres.

Even calling it 3 litres an hour is 50ml a minute, I don't think I was running at that quite, from posts above others are running at 35ml or so a minute.
Like I said though, I wll tone it down a little next time. get myself a timer again, my trusty $2 reject shop one died after 5 years service.

also, cuts were not really a problem, I had no issues deciding what was really heads or tails, I discarded them straight off, hence working with jars 4-12 only or whatever it was. I was confused more about cutting for flavour in reality, which is more of a blending question. yes its smeared, its a pot still ..

Do people ever start wwith a reflux column, take off foreshots and 'bad' heads then swap over to a pot column ?
I'm tempted to try it..

brw: for anyone on IOS device, labtimer is a great little app, up to 16 timers running at once.

[choppy]

I'd worry more about running the still properly first rather than blending.

You cannot make effective cuts on smeared spirit.

Toothpick size stream is all you need to aim for on a pot still run... Adjust heat until the output is a thin unbroken stream - easy. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I was having this problem when I went from gas to electricity.

Even with just the 1 x 2400W element going I was running too fast and judging my cuts with any degree of confidence was hard.

I bought a controller and last couple of runs I was able to achieve the speed I wanted and work out the cuts so much easier.

Cheers
Choppy

[CaptainRedBeard]

Do people ever start wwith a reflux column, take off foreshots and 'bad' heads then swap over to a pot column ?
I'm tempted to try it..

I've never heard of anyone doing this. I think it would be unnecessary. A slow run pot still will remove the foreshots and heads effectively. Not only that, but the gas/electricity needed to get to boil, then you would have to let it cool enough so the ethanol vapor doesn't pour out of your boiler, then get it back up to temp. On top of that, your reflux will strip potential hearts while removing the heads, and generally speaking, reflux heads run a lot slower than pot heads, which is more gas wasted.
:handgestures-thumbdown: