My pot still build ... complete newb, no idea, help wanted.

[emptyglass]

If I may,
Go ahead and run your set up. It will work fine, although try and get as much length into the worm as you can, this will let you process what you made a bit quicker.
I'm guessing that if you've read this much, then you will know to toss the first 60ml (for a 30 litre boiler/ 25 litre charge.
Don't get hung up on a bit of brass if its your first still. If there is any lead in the brass fittings (its in there when the brass is molten, ready to cast, its part of it) you probably wont consume enough to matter. You may build another reasonably soon.
You got a few cats to skin at once, getting your ferments down pat, getting the cuts judged right, and aging. But they are down the road.
Your on the right track.

[googe]

:laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: [/b]

I went to Bunnings this evening and asked about the brass compression fittings. I asked if he had stainless, this is how the conversation went:

"I need stainless because those are coated with lead".
"Who told you that?"
"The blokes on the Internet"
"They are definitely don't have lead in them"
"No, but I think they're coated with lead or something"
"No way mate. I'm a registered plumber.

Bunnings lol. Ever wonder why all these so called tradesmen work at a hardware store when they can make 10 times the money plying their trade? I once took a 20 dollar can pf half empty spray paint back to Buninngs cause the fucker clogged up while painting my kids bike. The so called Trade qualified painter looked it up and down and then accused me of not shaking it up and mixing it before using it, because the bottom of the can had no dents in it from the little marble rattling around. I told him I have painted more shit with spray paint then he has dropped turds in the toilet bowl. I then asked him to shake the fucker up and show me how the marble should dent the can. After 10 minutes of the idiot standing there shaking it having an epileptic fit and still not a dented can to be seen he escorted me to the front counter to arrange for a replacement can...still no apology though. Mate of mine used to work in the garden center at Bunnings ...he had never turned a fuckin garden hose on in his life much less planted a seed...the only plant watering he used to do is pissing in the old girls pot plants after a night out on the turps...yet the picture of him on the wall at Bunnings say he is a "garden Expert" hahaha Bunnings ..fuck me.

[kelbygreen]

I have been told that even if you consume one whole fitting that it wont do a thing at all as there is like .1% or less of lead in most brass now. I wouldnt worry at all unless your melting them down and having them for breakfast 8-} I am sure the 800 deg malten steel would kill you before the lead did if you was doing that :laughing-rolling:

[Lowndsey]

I have been told that even if you consume one whole fitting that it wont do a thing at all

Gonna clog up the exit passage on the way out surely? :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

[blond.chap]

I have been told that even if you consume one whole fitting that it wont do a thing at all

Gonna clog up the exit passage on the way out surely? :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

Depends whether your ass is threaded...

[bt1]

I'm an anti brass bloke.

kk some folk don't see it the same way, that's ok it's their call as well. I seriously can't be fucked so do your own homework or do none it's your choice.

I've copped a fair bit on this subject over the past years but I'm willing to post what I've read and have confirmed, again for the doubters imho only. Right got that!

I've spent hours on:
US govt regulation sites
Aussie regulation sites
Aussie standards portal
6 + chemical engineering papers
Aussie & US chem registers
Wiki
I've arrived at a personal position only.

Last time this heart felt bastard of a subject was raised I was called alarmist. I'm not suggesting you take any action or reconsider the parts you've used or are considering...cos they're well safe cos you did all the homework before selecting or a bloke recommended them and we know that's ok.

Lead in brass does not remain fixed. Ethanol or simular solvents cause a leaching or chemical migration.
Chemical reactions don't halt cos we put brass into a pickling soln for a surface treatment only
Pickling resolves the issue but only lasts for an unknown period of time due to above.

The Aust standard is crap for DR or lead free. The US California legislation this year will force a fixed lead content of less than < 3%
Fuck me 3% can't be bad...the shit leaches into the soln we make so that's 3% of total wieght worst case...consider.

The lead poisoning rate for serious concern published for Aussie water is less that 1/10,000th of a std brass compression fitting weight. err see pt re 3% by weight
Lead free in Aussie does not mean lead free...It's just not the old school 9% used in years past. Expect 3 up to 9% here.
Aussie has very piss poor stds on lead on a world wide basis.

The acetates of lead don't sink in a ethanol solution or any other for that matter unless weight is higher...It's fucking soluable and spreads equally based on concentration not weight bullshit

In US southern States hospitals admittance questions include moonshine consumption. If scored on those questions a test for lead poisoning is std practice. Don't forget these old schoolers use bloody lead soldered car radiators for cooling. I think we safely say most would not consider these days.

Aust water authorities regularly test for lead content..not cos they are fucking happy about it it's known dare I say it, an unwanted in our domestic water supplies.
Most plumbers now use high pressure compression fitted gear in plastics reducing the problem.

You think some else is going to look after your distilling non standard use /outside of spec requirements with fittings certified only for water, buy a lottery ticket weekly.
You won't get MSD sheets for fittings so you buy on reputation only generally.

The upsides, are SS especially 316L grade or 316 or even 304 have no lead and generally speaking don't cost a bundle more. If you want a quality supplier after much much research try Prochem they are national, and well good.

http://www.prochem.com.au

my position only, you get yours or simply sit back and do nothing cos it's really your view that counts for you.
bt1

[crow]

said it before will say it again: As long as everyone knows there maybe upto 3% lead ppl need to make their own risk assessment here. i myself think its not a big deal and no deal at all if its before the product condenser , i think what tiny bit of lead that might be on the surface would be removed with the first ever 20ml of fores other opinions differ some wouldn't want to be in the same state as a piece of plumbing brass thats their choice too :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Edit ok some have posted while I was typing so hope its not repetitive

[emptyglass]

I'm an anti brass bloke.

kk some folk don't see it the same way, that's ok it's their call as well. I seriously can't be fucked so do your own homework or do none it's your choice.

I've copped a fair bit on this subject over the past years but I'm willing to post what I've read and have confirmed, again for the doubters imho only. Right got that!

I've spent hours on:
US govt regulation sites
Aussie regulation sites
Aussie standards portal
6 + chemical engineering papers
Aussie & US chem registers
Wiki
I've arrived at a personal position only.

Last time this heart felt bastard of a subject was raised I was called alarmist. I'm not suggesting you take any action or reconsider the parts you've used or are considering...cos they're well safe cos you did all the homework before selecting or a bloke recommended them and we know that's ok.

Lead in brass does not remain fixed. Ethanol or simular solvents cause a leaching or chemical migration.
Chemical reactions don't halt cos we put brass into a pickling soln for a surface treatment only
Pickling resolves the issue but only lasts for an unknown period of time due to above.

The Aust standard is crap for DR or lead free. The US California legislation this year will force a fixed lead content of less than < 3%
Fuck me 3% can't be bad...the shit leaches into the soln we make so that's 3% of total wieght worst case...consider.

The lead poisoning rate for serious concern published for Aussie water is less that 1/10,000th of a std brass compression fitting weight. err see pt re 3% by weight
Lead free in Aussie does not mean lead free...It's just not the old school 9% used in years past. Expect 3 up to 9% here.
Aussie has very piss poor stds on lead on a world wide basis.

The acetates of lead don't sink in a ethanol solution or any other for that matter unless weight is higher...It's fucking soluable and spreads equally based on concentration not weight bullshit

In US southern States hospitals admittance questions include moonshine consumption. If scored on those questions a test for lead poisoning is std practice. Don't forget these old schoolers use bloody lead soldered car radiators for cooling. I think we safely say most would not consider these days.

Aust water authorities regularly test for lead content..not cos they are fucking happy about it it's known dare I say it, an unwanted in our domestic water supplies.
Most plumbers now use high pressure compression fitted gear in plastics reducing the problem.

You think some else is going to look after your distilling non standard use /outside of spec requirements with fittings certified only for water, buy a lottery ticket weekly.
You won't get MSD sheets for fittings so you buy on reputation only generally.

The upsides, are SS especially 316L grade or 316 or even 304 have no lead and generally speaking don't cost a bundle more. If you want a quality supplier after much much research try Prochem they are national, and well good.

http://www.prochem.com.au

my position only, you get yours or simply sit back and do nothing cos it's really your view that counts for you.
bt1

Geez mate, you off the smokes too?

[Rumdrinker]

Hi Galah,
I actually like the idea of a worm for a product condenser, especially when you have dam or tank water to use as trickle flow cooling :handgestures-thumbupleft:
As for the pot design, well it all comes down to personal preference & what you hope to gain from it & at what cost. The tried & proven basic pot still design is hard to beat & is cheap to put together & with a couple of mods can be fine tuned to multi task as well 8-)
As for the brass fittings, well that is really a personal choice issue based on your own risk management. Me personally, I think the risk isn't great but at the cost of stainless fittings any risk is unnecessary so I don't have any brass on my stills, I just don't see the need to use brass when you can get stainless fittings so cheap.
Enjoy the build & keep us posted on the results ;-)

[MacStill]

Geez mate, you off the smokes too?

That's what I thought too :laughing-rolling:

[Galah]

Thanks guys. Read through all the replies. Very much appreciate all the help and the information. Beats the shit out of the yank site where everyone just told me to "do a search" and "read the rules".

I don't know much about any of this, but my first thought is the same as crows: what does it matter if the fitting is before the condenser? I'm not suggesting this is a good idea for a second, but just to play devil's advocate, what would it matter if the fittings were 100% lead and you were using 100% lead pipes before the condenser? Surely heavy metal is not going to be distilled into vapour, no matter how much of it there is.

I can understand the concern if there is lead in or after the condenser, once the vapour has turned to liquid. The high alcohol liquid could easily dissolve the heavy metals and land it in the end product. But I just can't see heavy metal going up in steam.

That all being said, I'd rather just use stainless fittings and forget about it. Does anyone know where I can get a stainless compression union with a copper compression fitting inside it, like the brass ones at Bunnings - or if not, something else that will do that job?

Cheers.

[blond.chap]

I don't know much about any of this, but my first thought is the same as crows: what does it matter if the fitting is before the condenser? I'm not suggesting this is a good idea for a second, but just to play devil's advocate, what would it matter if the fittings were 100% lead and you were using 100% lead pipes before the condenser? Surely heavy metal is not going to be distilled into vapour, no matter how much of it there is.

From what I understand you could still get lead ions dissolving in entrained droplets of ethanol/water. It's not solid lead particles (which are heavy) that end up in your drink. The main argument for not stressing too much is that hot ethanol is a very good solvent, so a cleaning run to begin with will remove a decent portion of surface lead and subsequent runs with removal of foreshots will take more away.

This is mostly speculation of what might be happening. It would be really interesting to have some runs lab tested to put this issue to rest. I may even do this with my pot still (hasn't been used yet). Testing samples from the first run run [foreshots, hearts, tails], then from several other runs. Would just need to line up a NATA lab, unless anyone is aware of simple lead test?

[bt1]

blond,

you really need to reconsider this here...it's way way of the mark..but hey do what you like.

bt1

[crow]

yeah I guy on AD awhile back did that with plumbing grade brass, he was an analistical Chemist . He did a large number of tests and found minute traces of all sorts of things lead was not one of them , as in he could not find even the small trace you would expect to find in drinking water . Sooo I'm not having a total break down over the couple of brass fittings in my still with almost no contact with ethanol anyway as it seems possible that I am exposing myself to thousands of times more lead by drinking water (deep down I just knew water was bad news) or taking a breath as for putting lead in the still , dont push it bud, fella's do get sick and do die from lead solder

[blond.chap]

blond,
you really need to reconsider this here...it's way way of the mark..but hey do what you like.
bt1

bt1, I'm totally open to reconsidering, and I appreciate that you're concerned for people's safety.

One thing I'd like to make totally clear is that I have absolutely no first hand knowledge of what happens when ethanol vapour comes in contact with brass. The last thing I want to do is tell people that it is safe, because I honestly don't know. My original point here was to avoid using plumbing tape to connect copper in the vapour path.

That said, I'm interested to look into it further, particularly with some first hand experimenting.

Crow, do you have a link to that guy's thread?

[Galah]

In any case, I'll be looking to use stainless connections just for ease of mind.

But I probably will run it once or twice with brass ones, while I source the stainless ones. My brother (who, btw, thinks brass is fine to use), sent me this link for SS fixings:

http://gryphonbrewing.com.au/product_in ... cts_id=548

They cost a bloody fortune.

Are they even air (vapour) tight? (either those ones or the brass ones?)

[Galah]

I forgot to say earlier, the "solder" you have in the picture is silver brazing alloy (confusingly also called hard solder), it needs Mapp or oxy acetylene to melt (you've got butane

I managed to get the stuff going with my torch, just enough to get half of the fitting done on either side that joins my two 3m worm coils into one 6m worm coil. Lucky I did, because the soft solder seems nowhere near strong enough to hold it. So I got the hard solder holding it together, and then just made it air-tight with the soft solder (in what must be the messiest soldering job ever - I might post a pic in the bloopers forum).

Unfortunately, I can't get the hard stuff to melt at all anymore. I dunno what happened. I had it going okay for a little while, but for the last half hour, whenever I try the hard stuff going again I just feel like I'm wasting propane (it's actually a propane torch, not butane).

Glows red hot but doesn't melt. Dunno how I melted it in the first place, but I did.

[crow]

this is a vicious rumour started by employees of bunnings , under normal conditions you can't silver solder with butane , however BT1 did it by placing the whole job on a ring burner and then with the burner heating used the torch to hard solder ;-) . Otherwise you will have to bite the bullet and get prolypropolyne ( yellow bottle stuff )

[Galah]

Thanks for your advice mate. However, I have propane, not butane.

In any case, it doesn't seem up for the job. It did for about 1 minute, and I wish I knew what I did to get it flowing, but that was it.

I hope the yellow one fits onto my torch fitting. I don't want to have to buy a whole new torch setup.

[MacStill]

You need Mapp gas or oxy for brazing (hard solder, silver soldering or what ever the fuck else ya need to call it)