3in Boka Questions

Reflux still design and discussion

3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:59 pm

Hi all,

As mentioned in my welcome message I have a little toy super still head which needs to be replaced. What I'm thinking is a 3" Boka of with a packed 1.8 to the plates reflux column then either a double or triple wound condenser (1/4") to cap (with vent) it off.

To answer a few of the needed questions

Current boiler is a SS 50l Keg with a single 2400w element with a current controller and a mash temp gauge fitted and has the standard 2in coupling. Not insulated yet but planning to fully insulate with high grade insulation before the next run.

Intend to produce solely Neutral spirit (quality over speed) I'll build a pot still for well running a pot stilling :)
I'm intending to be building it myself
Know my way around tools
Prefer to build out of copper, yep aware it much more expensive than SS but I should be able to cover the cost.
Class myself a beginner on making runs (half a dozen or so done to date) I know the basics but I'll admit i need practive in finding the cut points with better results.
Run my still outside (use the pool on a circulating pump to cool the unit)

I've been looking around at other peoples builds for a while and while speed isn't a real issue if I can spend more to improve the takeoff while not affecting quality I take that approach.

Few questions, Sorry for asking so many.

Is 2400w enough or should I install a second element and vary the input as needed?
Is the 2in still coupling going to cause an issue/restrict performance going to the 3" column?
Is 1.8m to the slotted plates enough?
Would you recommend a small Liebig product condenser or take it off warmer to aid volatiles to gas off a little?
Ive noticed that the lower plate should have a notch to direct the overflow down the center of the reflux chamber, Has anyone tried welling it out a little to aid this process instead of having the edge it at a right angle to the column?

Feel free to always point out any stupidity in my approach, also any additional reading anyone has come across in related topics, always looking for a good book.

Cheers, look forward to hopefully assisting and contributing in the future.

Damien
Skara
 
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equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Doubleuj » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:01 am

Hi mate, I can only help on some of your questions

Skara wrote:
Is 2400w enough or should I install a second element and vary the input as needed?1x 2400 is enough but if you want a shorter heat up time add a second
Is the 2in still coupling going to cause an issue/restrict performance going to the 3" column?no
Is 1.8m to the slotted plates enough?i believe so
Would you recommend a small Liebig product condenser or take it off warmer to aid volatiles to gas off a little?dont know what you mean by gas off? You NEVER want ethanol vapour coming off, a bigger than needed condenser is best
Ive noticed that the lower plate should have a notch to direct the overflow down the center of the reflux chamber, Has anyone tried welling it out a little to aid this process instead of having the edge it at a right angle to the column?

Feel free to always point out any stupidity in my approach, also any additional reading anyone has come across in related topics, always looking for a good book.

Cheers, look forward to hopefully assisting and contributing in the future.

Damien
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby wynnum1 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:31 am

Second element has one big advantage in reducing the heat up time.
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:55 pm

Cheers for the responses, Agree Doubleuj never want ethanol vapor out the product line however I have read somewhere that a warmer product aids with some of the more volitile that manage to make it through to gas off, not sure if the article I read was talking shit but it kinda made a little sense seeing as a lot of people "Air" there cuts after running.

I was contemplating a gas burner to aid the starting heatup but I think in the long run a second element would be the better way to go, just need to get the electrical in this new house looked into. 80's house and been in it for a few months and I'm tripping if I run the still and a few of the bigger items in the house. Got a sparky int he family so will get him to look into it.

is a propane "Booster" A workable option int he short term?

Probable wont go a triple wound, Ill just do a longer double. This is unless I feel like making my life harder than it needs to be :)

Also anyone know of anyone in the Perth area that will do cashy SS welds? I welded my last ferrule on to the keg with stick (1.6mm SS rods) an while I like a challenge I'm not super keen to repeat the process. That and the welds looked like a girl I brought home from a pub when I was 19, Functional but damn you don't want your mates seeing it.
Skara
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:54 pm
Location: Perth
equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
2" pot still

Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby scythe » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:21 pm

Gas booster is probably a bad idea.
Would not want to melt your elements leads.
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby hillzabilly » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:04 pm

Skara wrote:Cheers for the responses, Agree Doubleuj never want ethanol vapor out the product line however I have read somewhere that a warmer product aids with some of the more volitile that manage to make it through to gas off, not sure if the article I read was talking shit but it kinda made a little sense seeing as a lot of people "Air" there cuts after running.

I was contemplating a gas burner to aid the starting heatup but I think in the long run a second element would be the better way to go, just need to get the electrical in this new house looked into. 80's house and been in it for a few months and I'm tripping if I run the still and a few of the bigger items in the house. Got a sparky int he family so will get him to look into it.

is a propane "Booster" A workable option int he short term?

Probable wont go a triple wound, Ill just do a longer double. This is unless I feel like making my life harder than it needs to be :)

Also anyone know of anyone in the Perth area that will do cashy SS welds? I welded my last ferrule on to the keg with stick (1.6mm SS rods) an while I like a challenge I'm not super keen to repeat the process. That and the welds looked like a girl I brought home from a pub when I was 19, Functional but damn you don't want your mates seeing it.

I use a bloke called Stuart from Angry Panda in Walliston up in the perth hills,he has done all my Tig stainless welding ,I do all the prep work also wich keeps the price lower,he is a honest bloke that will take care of it for cash ,he is a one man workshop and has even been a source of small pieces of stainless for those little jobs,give him a call befor ya head up as he sometimes works off site ,and he may be able ta do it while ya wait as its a fair way ta go ,but Iam sure you will be very happy with his work,tell him nick sent ya from the distilling site.cheers hillzabilly ;-)
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:01 pm

scythe wrote:Gas booster is probably a bad idea.
Would not want to melt your elements leads.


Good point :) How didnt I notice that obvious oversight

Cheer Hillzabilly will keep that in mind once I pull the SS bits and bobs together.
Skara
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:54 pm
Location: Perth
equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
2" pot still

Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby 620rossco » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 am

Awesome reply DoubleUJ

Is 2400w enough or should I install a second element and vary the input as needed?


I feed my 3" a little bit more than that, otherwise the takeoff rate is only marginally faster than a 2".
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby wynnum1 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:36 am

Would a 3600 W element replacement be enough and do some elements have 2 inputs that you can turn one off to run at half power .
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby scythe » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:36 am

You could have it wired that way, as they are usually two loops wired together.
They are not "switchable" without some extra wiring and components but its not complicated for a sparky at all.
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby wynnum1 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:15 am

scythe wrote:You could have it wired that way, as they are usually two loops wired together.
They are not "switchable" without some extra wiring and components but its not complicated for a sparky at all.

Are the elements made for places like the USA that are 110 v but they refer to 220 v for stoves driers heating elements are these 3 phase to get the extra voltage .
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby scythe » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:23 pm

Not sure about the states.
They might use poly-phase to get a higher voltage or they might alter another part of the power equation.

If you put a lower voltage through an element you get a lower heat, as long as everything else is equal.
A guy at work uses stove elements as kennel heaters for his dogs.
Think he said he puts 24v through them and it just warms the bed, still cool enough to keep your hand on, but you don't end up with cooked dog.

But as far as i know the 2400w elements are 10A single phase and the 3600w are 15A single phase.
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Mon May 01, 2017 10:01 pm

Thanks guys for the info on the elements, I was starting to worry that a single 2400 might not be up to the task so might try a run and then if needed buy either a second element or a larger one.

I've been busy sourcing kit for the column and going to check some stuff out on Friday but I think the dream of copper for this build is not going to happen, not really an expense thing, while its a factor its more a finding a 3in pipe deal.

That being said is there any issue running copper scrubbies in a SS column as far as cross metal contamination/oxidation?

Either way when I start the build (Hopefully this saturday if I can) I'll take snaps as I go and post them up, I'll be soldering all the couplings this time round as there will be no butt joins so I'm not to worried about strength.

Anyhow see how I go.
Skara
 
Posts: 21
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Location: Perth
equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
2" pot still

Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Fri May 05, 2017 1:13 am

Hi Guys,

Just want to run a few things by you all before I start cutting, I've attached a few pictures I knocked together (missing a few bits but its late and working with pipe in sketchup sucks) for what Im intending to build to get your feedback.

Basic 3 inch design,
Reducer 2" to 3" I'm doing this as a temporary solution, I intend to modify my boiler to accept a 3" coupling but for now its not really an option.
Column I currently have at 1500mm and will be packed with copper mesh, I did ask if there would be any cross metal funk so if anyone knows let me know.
Plates While not currently drawn to scale I intend to mount the plates centrally, I'll notch the botom plate a little to direct the reflux down the center. plates at 30deg
and top slightly overlapping the bottom. Question how much of a spacing between the top and bottom do you recommend? Also no thermo drawn but intend to
mount digital unit just under top plate. outlet will have flow control also.
Condenser 300mm in total length made from 6mm pipe double wound, real bugger to draw so not perfect but enough to get an idea, question should I back the center with
copper or leave open? Ive also got a vent currently in the center of the top cap (will be a loose fit cap) is this ok or should i mount the vent of center?

Any feedback or advice before I start cutting?

Cheers
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Skara
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:54 pm
Location: Perth
equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
2" pot still

Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Zak Griffin » Fri May 05, 2017 6:15 am

Looks good to me!

There's no issues regarding dissimilar metals with copper and stainless. Not in our circumstance, anyway.
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby scythe » Fri May 05, 2017 6:50 am

You drafties/engieers are a funny bunch...
A quick chicken scratch mud map would have sufficed.
About the only improvement i can make would be to ditch the idea of only stepping up to 3" on the boiler.
4" would be a minimum with 6" preferrable unless you have skinny arms that can fit through a 4" ferrule.
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Fri May 05, 2017 2:21 pm

haha no drafter here mate just a bored guy with to much of his own product to drink. I've not even used autocad before, Im a sketchup cheapscape.

well first purchase down 2 metres or 3in 316 and unions purchased.

Scythe - like the idea mate I could get most of my arm in a 3in hole... getting it out again well many a kid has found that out the hard way with head in stairs banisters.

I have for the time being got a 2-3 inch reduction however I think I'll get a second keg and set that up with a 4" or 6" top Ferrule and add a second element port. If I get real wanky Ill put a viewport on it aswell.

Cheers will start taking some pics as the construction starts.
Skara
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:54 pm
Location: Perth
equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
2" pot still

Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Zak Griffin » Fri May 05, 2017 2:25 pm

There's plenty of us here, myself included, who only have a 2" or 3" port in the boiler... I've never felt the need to stick an arm in mine, I just give it a good rinse after I've drained it.

I would go 4" instead of 3" though, so you can clamp a 4" bubbler straight on top when you build one.
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"Zaphod" - 3" Pot - retired
"Agrajag" - 6" Bubbler - midlife crisis build?

Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby hillzabilly » Fri May 05, 2017 7:49 pm

I would consider makeing ya condencer a shotgun ,300-400mm long with 19 or so 3/8 copper tubes ,will future proof ya effort with a couple of 90'elbows will give you a great stripper and pot still as well,I found coils of 6mm copper tube of a good length needed a lot of water pressure ta work well and can be difficult to bend tight radius sections,adding a cold finger to supply two indevidual coils may be a better option as well,were as shotgun condencers can run well on quite low pressure and still get the required flow rate to get 100% knockdown.cheers hillzabilly :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: 3in Boka Questions

Postby Skara » Fri May 05, 2017 11:32 pm

Cheers for the feedback and suggestions guys, I was looking at the shotguns but wasn't sure of their performance. I have since done some additional reading and as you said hillzabilly it can be a little more versatile. also I started working out the amount of copper tube I was going to need and started to go a little white in the face. admittedly it's not a lot but still the shotgun design looks great, similar if not better performance and versatile. That and with my normal shed activity I think I'd have more success building a shotgun over a coil condenser

Might get shot with a real shotgun for asking this one but has anyone ever used pool water in there cooling lines? I know that if it leaks pretty much kiss a run goodbye but I've a fitting somewhere in my shed I used to use to connect one of the jets up to a hose to run water down the kids slide, worked a treat and if the pressure got to high it just redirected to the other jets.

Ill go back to my elaborate drawing and knock something together :)
Skara
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:54 pm
Location: Perth
equipment: 50l SS Keg 2400w element
2" copper boka
2" pot still

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