SPP

[Kal]

Just wondering if anyone here uses Spiral Prismatic Packaging? (I think some of you do ;-) )

If so, how do you find it?

I am thinking of ordering some from Poland. The SPP themsevles are quite affordable, the shipping costs more :angry-banghead:

lots of info at Artisan forums on this, no chat here yet.

[devotus]

what are the shipping costs?

[eminiM]

Shipping to Canada and the SPP are almost the exact same amount. Landed 3 liters on my doorstep for just over $150 Canadian. I've had a go with this stuff 3 times now. 2" column, 48" of SPP. Extraordinarily clean product. Good output rate, GREAT heads compression and fast heads removal.
My only gripe is I can't seem to put in more than 1400 watts without severely flooding the column. I believe (not certain) that it's because I'm packed to 48".
That's a lot of plates. 24 or more according to Riku's estimates.
I'm quite happy with the product with a strip and spirit run whereas I was doing a strip and 2 runs through the column previously.

Hope this helps your decision.

[Cane Toad]

Hey Kal,PM 5Star :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[R-sole]

No point Pming me, but manu at http://www.stainlessstuff.net/ is doing it for $20 a kilo out of Vietnam.

[Kal]

From Poland the product is about $25AU / liter, and I think I'd need 1.7l for my 2" 90cm column, but shipping with normal postage was about $100 :sad:

I'll email the stainlessstuff guys, I'm sure vietnam shipping would be cheaper :-D

[Al Qaemist]

I got some last week from the polish guy - be warned his communication is piss poor - he held on to my cash for 2 months before shipping- no response to emails etc. - I got it eventually, but it was a painful process.

I've only done a cleaning run so far - so the jury is out - but running it with a bubble plate under the column was unbelievably fast - when it warms up here in the next few weeks, I should have some ferments going, and I'll post a proper report for you all - been bloody snowing this week :cry:
A word of caution - minime has reported problems with flooding when using it in his column, and having to run on lower power - so your mileage may differ.


edit - sorry I missed mini's post

[Kal]

Shipping to Canada and the SPP are almost the exact same amount. Landed 3 liters on my doorstep for just over $150 Canadian. I've had a go with this stuff 3 times now. 2" column, 48" of SPP. Extraordinarily clean product. Good output rate, GREAT heads compression and fast heads removal.
My only gripe is I can't seem to put in more than 1400 watts without severely flooding the column. I believe (not certain) that it's because I'm packed to 48".
That's a lot of plates. 24 or more according to Riku's estimates.
I'm quite happy with the product with a strip and spirit run whereas I was doing a strip and 2 runs through the column previously.

Hope this helps your decision.

Great information, exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I'm looking at SPP because my packed column of 90cm is slightly shorter than the typical recommended length of 120cm -150cm, and from reports that I have read I should be able to have an azetrope quality takeoff with less reflux, meaning a faster run. From the sounds of it I'd also be able to save a bit of time with the great heads compression as well, as there will be less time at a drip rate and more time on the thin stream rate of hearts takeoff :smile:

I do have my TRIAC controller now so if I have flooding issues I can work through it while I work on improvements to reach the perfect balance. Have you considered removing some of the packing to verify if it is the quantity in the 48" column causing this issue?

The drop from a 3 run to 2 run process is the most telling factor to me though. That in itself is a big thumbs up to the quality of the product that you are pushing out of your still :dance:

[Kal]

I got some last week from the polish guy - be warned his communication is piss poor - he held on to my cash for 2 months before shipping- no response to emails etc. - I got it eventually, but it was a painful process.

I've only done a cleaning run so far - so the jury is out - but running it with a bubble plate under the column was unbelievably fast - when it warms up here in the next few weeks, I should have some ferments going, and I'll post a proper report for you all - been bloody snowing this week :cry:

Thanks for the warning. I will have to probe him to ensure the product is available and ready to ship before I commit to any purchase.

As your temps warm up mine will be dropping fast,and I'll be on my winter break (although it doesn't snow down here in Sydney!) I look forward to your complete reports :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Al Qaemist]

from reports that I have read I should be able to have an azetrope quality takeoff with less reflux, meaning a faster run.

You probably want to maintain a good reflux ratio - although you can achieve 95%+ not all 95% is equal, running too fast can result in hot tasting alcohol and isn't as smooth as with the higher reflux ratio.
What it should hopefully let you do is put in more power, so you can increase the take off, but you are maintaining a good reflux ratio. If my cleaning run results are repeated on an actual run - then I can pump in 1100w MORE than I normally run with, this means I should be able to take off and extra 1.1L an hour while maintaining the same proportions of reflux.

Now this packing should give you more theoretical plates than your current packing - I'm not sure what extra plates after the number needed to achieve azetrope does to the quality of the product, so you may be able to reduce the ratio (increasing the take off even further) and have the same quality - I honestly don't know if this is the case, but I'm going to find out. :-D

[Kal]

Just re-read manu's thread over on artisan and I see that he is using .25mm wire for 2.5mm diameter SPP.

With all indications pointing to an optimum SPP size of 1/10th - 1/12th the diameter of the column, using wire 1/10th the diameter of the SPP, this product would suit a 1" column best. I have a 2" column :-|

[R-sole]

More info on Manu's product is up now.


http://www.artisan-distiller.net/phpBB3 ... 945#p89945

[Kal]

Thanks 5Star, I've read through manu's results and heres the comparison to the polish product that emineM is using (please correct me if anyone see's anything wrong with this):

polish SPP ~3.5mm diameter
flooding points reported at 1400W using 1.2M packed column, and > 2500W

manu's SPP ~2.5mm diameter
flooding point at 1900W using 1M packed column

Theory states the larger SPP will have less of a tendancy to flood, and I'm thinking that maybe the starting ABV might have an impact on the flooding point, as a 40% spirit run will push alot more alcohol gas up the column than a 10% wash run. Could this explain the discrepancy above, as I don't think the extra 20cm of packing emineM is using would cause that much of a difference.

[Kal]

I ended up placing an order for manu's SPP, based purely on price.

I am certain that they will not work as well as the polish version for my column, but at AU$78 for 2L (2.8KG) including shipping (sea) it worked out at half the price of the other option.

I also found a copy of a book called "separation of isotopes of biogenic elements in two-phase systems" with some interesting reading in it regarding packing. I've attached a pic to this post from it which compares some packing materials

[Al Qaemist]

Kal - I would be careful saying the 3.5mm diameter definitely floods at 1400w - both mini and I were running a similar set up - 2" over a bubble plate - I got no flooding until i was pushing way over 2500w.
If the SPP acts the same as other packing, having the plate under the column will let you push more power in anyway - so the fact he is having issues at lower power makes me think something else is wrong here - I'm positive he will crack what this issue is.

More snow again today - hoping my new heaters arrive so I can get some washes finished, itching to see if I can repeat my initial results.

[eminiM]

If the SPP acts the same as other packing, having the plate under the column will let you push more power in anyway - so the fact he is having issues at lower power makes me think something else is wrong here - I'm positive he will crack what this issue is.

I have a panela sugar wash to run so I'm going to empty the SPP and fill the column to 1/2 meter. I won't pack down the spp this time leaving more open space..........hopefully this weekend

I'm thinking that maybe the starting ABV might have an impact on the flooding point, as a 40% spirit run will push alot more alcohol gas up the column than a 10% wash run

You might be right Kal. I started with 30% for the spirit run and both Manu and I experienced the same thing nearing the end of the run. The liquid hold up is so high in the column that the last bit of alcohol seems to be stuck in the column. Lower energy input allowed the column to stabilize but did not translate to high purity output........ BTW that's Manu's theory and I tend to agree from my experience so far.

[Kal]

Kal - I would be careful saying the 3.5mm diameter definitely floods at 1400w - both mini and I were running a similar set up - 2" over a bubble plate - I got no flooding until i was pushing way over 2500w

Noted. I have edited the post to reflect the range of reported flooding points.

Interesting how you and mini both use a bubble plate. Any reason for that? I'm assuming it is different to a plate typically used in a flute (which is designed to flood and overflow)

[eminiM]

Kal - I would be careful saying the 3.5mm diameter definitely floods at 1400w - both mini and I were running a similar set up - 2" over a bubble plate - I got no flooding until i was pushing way over 2500w

Noted. I have edited the post to reflect the range of reported flooding points.

Interesting how you and mini both use a bubble plate. Any reason for that? I'm assuming it is different to a plate typically used in a flute (which is designed to flood and overflow)

With scrubbers in place for packing and a plate containing a largish volume of higher purity alcohol you can deliver higher power to the column allowing a higher takeoff rate. Both myself and Sulteck over at Artisan were able to push 2.5kw and coax 3200ml per hour from our 2" columns without falling off azeotrope. It also translated to higher output right through the entire run not just the beginning.
That's why I was disappointed when the SPP flooded so easily on me although I have been able to collect up to 2.4 liters per hour of very high quality azeotrope at 1400 watts. Lots to learn and lots to experiment with but I can say without a doubt there are not really any disappointments.

BTW, have you guys seen these http://www.ebay.com/itm/320785304988?ss ... 1497.l2649

Seller has other scales to suit your needs.

[SBB]

Thanks for the link Mini......a range of those Alcometers could be very handy ;-)

[Al Qaemist]

Interesting how you and mini both use a bubble plate. Any reason for that? I'm assuming it is different to a plate typically used in a flute (which is designed to flood and overflow)

Actually that is exactly what it is like - I have ran in this config a few times - and like mini found I could really push the power up.


The thinking behind this is by bubbling the vapour through a physical plate first you guarantee contact between vapour and the liquid - this contact is normally pretty poor/ inefficient lower down in a column, so the plate holds on to some of the water and the column is fed with a richer vapour - A thumper would do this just as well.


Al Q