Vm reflux

[Distillnation]

Hi,

New member here but not new to distilling. I've done various runs with family and friends trying different mash and still types, the most recent one producing 95%. The only problem is that I don't have a still I can call my own. That is, until now.

I just acquired what was meant to be a VM still but didn't quite get there due to some misinformation. The builder has gone on to other stills and has one he is happy with, so I got his "old" one for free :D It only had one cleaning run, and because it wasn't finished, it just steamed out. So it's pretty much new.

Anyway here is what it looks like:

IMG_20130309_185601.JPG

There are a few things you may already notice need doing and some you may not be able to see.

1. The top of the column is open. What should I put here to hold a thermometer? Bung? End cap? And what would you recommend, digital or analogue?

2. There are no valves on this VM. Do I only need one on the output or does the reflux return need one as well? What kind would be best and easier to get? Needle, gate, ball, etc.

3. How should I connect it to the keg? I was thinking of a 2" ferrule and tri-clamp from (or wherever is cheap), if soldering isn't going to be too difficult for me. Or if possible, sealing the ferrule to the column with paste each run. What do you think? Any other ideas?

As far as I can tell, that is all I need to do to get it up and running.

If you need any more information just let me know. I can get some more pics if needed of the condenser, down the column, etc.

Cheers

[Distillnation]

Can't edit my post anymore unfortunately, but I think I'm using the wrong term hah. I keep saying VM when I should be saying Valved Reflux, or at least I think I so.

Correct me if I'm wrong!

[Brendan]

Hey mate, welcome to the forum. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

To seal the top of the column, and end cap will do the job nicely. If you figure out soldering, it's fairly simple once you get the hang of it...otherwise a good flour paste seal :? may hold it on there...Just ensure the top of the offset head above the condenser is open to the atmosphere

I don't think you would want a valve on the reflux return, just on your output line...

There's a few methods for keg connection: research 'easy easy flange' on this forum, you need someone to hard solder braze the flange ring for you so that it doesn't break apart when hammered flat.

With an SS ferrule you can get a pipe joiner, work out soldering SS to copper. I wouldn't recommend flour paste on this part myself, as the weight of the whole column is held at that join and you need some mechanical strength. Also, I have had success in the past with flaring the end of the pipe slightly, and hammering the ferrule in.

Good luck with it :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Brendan]

Yeah it's actually an LM (liquid managed, see thread in newbies lounge), but I'm unfamiliar with this type...I can't see the purpose of a valve on the reflux, but I could be overlooking the purpose of the design. You are controlling the amount of liquid collected by the output valve.

Look up 'Nixon & Stone Offset Head'...I think that's the general setup that its meant to be :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Yummyrum]

For the thermo ,I'd put on a cap,solder on a small bit of 1/4" that you could insert a Digital thermo with teflon tape wpapped around to pack it.

This is a LM still not a VM ,yes you need a needle valve but only on the output ,not the reflux as is usually done.So long as the height of the reflux tube in the bottom cap is higher than the output tube height.

Yes solder on a SS ferrule.IMHO There's no way in hell that flour past will support that structure on its own

EDIT : woops Sorry Brendon ,we posted together ,I need to type faster :))

[Distillnation]

Hey mate, welcome to the forum. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

To seal the top of the column, and end cap will do the job nicely. If you figure out soldering, it's fairly simple once you get the hang of it...otherwise a good flour paste seal :? may hold it on there...Just ensure the top of the offset head above the condenser is open to the atmosphere

Thanks for the welcome.

Alright, end cap it is then! Hopefully I can get one easily enough. Shouldn't be too hard though, there's always online options. The top of the offset head is completely open so that is good to go.

I don't think you would want a valve on the reflux return, just on your output line...

There's a few methods for keg connection: research 'easy easy flange' on this forum, you need someone to hard solder braze the flange ring for you so that it doesn't break apart when hammered flat.

With an SS ferrule you can get a pipe joiner, work out soldering SS to copper. I wouldn't recommend flour paste on this part myself, as the weight of the whole column is held at that join and you need some mechanical strength. Also, I have had success in the past with flaring the end of the pipe slightly, and hammering the ferrule in.

Good luck with it :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Cool, that cuts down costs a bit (I've looked at a few SS needle valves and they can get pretty pricey).

I'll look into the easy flange and see how difficult it will be, but like you said, the ferrule might be a bit easier for me to manage. I can always get the guy who made it to do it for me if it comes down to it.

Thanks, hopefully it won't be too long before I have it up and running. I'll do some reading up on running a LM still so I know what I'm doing. Thanks for the correction.

For the thermo ,I'd put on a cap,solder on a small bit of 1/4" that you could insert a Digital thermo with teflon tape wpapped around to pack it.

Cheers for the reply! Sounds like a plan, and shouldn't be too hard to manage. Will give me some experience with soldering as well.

This is a LM still not a VM ,yes you need a needle valve but only on the output ,not the reflux as is usually done.So long as the height of the reflux tube in the bottom cap is higher than the output tube height.

Yes solder on a SS ferrule.IMHO There's no way in hell that flour past will support that structure on its own

EDIT : woops Sorry Brendon ,we posted together ,I need to type faster :))

When you say about the reflux tube being higher than the output, do you mean it should look like this? (See below dodgy 'shop)

IMG_20130309_185601.JPG

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check it out, but with any luck it will hopefully be okay. If it's not higher than the output, does that just mean I will need a needle valve for the reflux tube as well?

Yeah, I was going to support the still using some sky hooks, but that's not too useful in terms of portability anyway, so looks like some lucky supplier will be getting a couple orders from me sometime this week. Really looking forward to getting some work done to it so I can get it up and running.

Thanks again for the replies guys

[Yummyrum]

Distillnation

Yes how you have drawn it is correct .Also the closer the valve is to the dam ,the less smearing you will have .

Not sure if you understand these LM (liquid management) stills but basically ,when the valve is off the Condensed liquid backs up until the excess overflows back down the reflux pipe .At this point you have 100% reflux .Everything that is condensed is returned to the packing.

If you slightly crack the valve ,a small proportion will come out into your collection jar ,the rest will overflow into the reflux tube to the packing.( you will get your purest booze like this but it will take ages)

If you open the valve fully, you collect all the booze and none is allowed to back up and overflow down the reflux tube so you get very low quality booze but much faster .

Along with a high reflux ratio ,it is the height of the packing in the column that gives you your higher quality . You will notice that you have already lost about 100mm of packing height by the way the reflux tube meanders down and into the column .Bring it straight out of the dam and into the column and you can get several cm more of packing in there and higher quality.If you can be fucked .Or just stick some more 2" on the bottom :handgestures-thumbupleft:

You do know it has to have packing in it .Stainless steel scrubbers or copper mesh .Sorry if I am stating the obvious .

[Distillnation]

Okay, so if I'm understanding this correctly, when I get the valve I should put it as close to the bottom of the head (dam?) for the output so I can more easily control the cuts I make.

II managed to get a look down the head before work this morning and both the output and reflux tubes are sitting flush with the bottom. Is this bad news for me, ie. I have to redo it? Or would a second needle placed on the reflux be okay. If I'm understanding your explanation correctly having the second valve would allow me to control the reflux in a manual way Eg. Slightly open the output and the reflux valves so it is collecting and refluxing at the same time or if I wanted, close the reflux all together to get lower alcohol quicker.

I understand why the pipes are meant to be different, you did explain that perfectly, so I hope I didn't butcher your explanation with my little valve theory up there.

It might be easier for me to add some more to the bottom rather than move the reflux so I might do that.

Yeah I knew I had to have packing, I was thinking 18-20" of packing, or should I do more? I'll get a measurement of the column when I get home in an hour or so.

Thanks for the help.

Also one more question, I've seen a few needle valves on eBay, and was wondering how I would connect them. The output is about 8-10mm pipe and the reflux is just normal (can't think of the size right now hah).

[Distillnation]

Okay so I just checked it out, there is roughly 24"between the bottom of the column and the reflux return pipe. Is that going to be enough?

I also went to the local hardware and got a few prices and pick for what I'll need. I've been reading a few threads here and here's what I came up with:

IMG_20130310_104030.JPG

IMG_20130310_104116.JPG

IMG_20130310_104147.JPG

They didn't have the solder in stock so I couldn't get a picture of that, but the others were there. My main question would be what flux is best, and will this get the job done. Going off the "soft solder only" thread, I should be fine but can't hurt to get a second opinion.

Cheers

[Yummyrum]

Hi Distillnation,

You are right that you can operate these stills with two valves but they are a bitch because you have to balance the flow between both valves to maintain a steady level in the dam.
Some have even fitted sight glasses so they can see how high the level is .One of the main things that makes these old dinosaur designs so bad was the level of fluid in the dam when run with two valves .Run both too hard and you would run out of fluid and no reflux .Run too light and massive build up and bad smearing

Best to just have one valve on the output.Its fine to leave this pipe level with the bottom ( in fact its the best ) and just redo the reflux pipe so it sits about 10-15mm higher and you'll be sweat :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Needle valve would be nice but you can use a SS ball valve to get you going but very fiddly to use .

[Distillnation]

Alright, cool. Do you have any tips for removing the old pipe? Cutting and filing back, etc.

I've found a few needle valves so I'll probably go that way to make it easier for me. Once I get everything and can start practising soldering I'll feel more confident making modifications.. It was free though and I can probably get another design made up of I wanted, but it will be a nice still to learn on.

Cheers for all the help

[Brendan]

Geez mate, find a new hardware store :o

The bernzo flux I get with the solder and flux for $15.90 from Gasweld...worst case it's about $25 at Bunnings with the flux aswell.

That propane torch and bottle I think I bought for in the $20's...maybe $25...

The smaller hardware stores will always sting you hard :handgestures-thumbdown:

[Distillnation]

Yeah, I figured I was getting ripped off. I'll check out another couple stores on Tuesday but unfortunately I live in a rural town so don't have any big name places here, I was more just surprised I could find it locally. I'll definitely look around first though.

Sucks it can't be shipped otherwise I'd go that way.

[Distillnation]

IMG_20130312_094559.jpg

Picked this up this morning from a different shop for $39.98. Pretty good in comparison to the hardware store. Plus it came with flux and solder. Can't really complain about that.

Order has been placed for the tri-clamp and ferrule so that should be here by the end of the week. All I need to do now is practice my soldering a bit before then.

It's always good when things get moving along, feels like I'm doing something, even if it is only spending money at this point hah.

Cheers

[Distillnation]

Okay, so I just did a test run to see how hard it's going to be. I probably didn't choose the best materials to work with, but I managed to get it done in the end.

It's water tight (no leaks so far), and it doesn't want to budge, no matter how hard I try. So that's good.

Here is what it looks like. It's just a piece of copper pipe, inside a bigger piece of copper pipe haha, I should have picked up some couplings while I was at the store, but it slipped my mind.

The reason I say it's not the best to work with is because the smaller pipe was loose inside the bigger pipe so it was moving around a bit. Would have been easier if the fit was a bit more tighter so that it wouldn't keep moving while the solder was hot.

But anyway, I'm happy with it for now, but I'll definitely be practicing more before I move on to the still. Need to get my confidence up a bit I think.

20130312_105735.JPG

20130312_105654.JPG

Not the prettiest looking piece though.

I do have a question or two though.

With the flux, how much should I be applying. I didn't do a whole lot, so I'm not sure if that would have made it harder.

And when cleaning the pipes, I just used some 800g sand paper to clean it back until it looked nice. Should I use something a bit more rough?

Cheers

[Brendan]

Mate any sandpaper will clean it up, 800 is on the finer end though. I use 40 myself, or a wire brush wheel in the drill. Cleanliness is the key to soldering, so make sure it's well sanded.

You don't need a lot of flux for usual jobs, some trickier joins you may do. Really the flux cleans the area as well and allows the solder to flow easier (as it won't flow where there's any dirt or grime). The thing to remember is if you put too much, when it gets hot and liquifies, it will run, making a nice path for your solder to follow to somewhere you don't want it. So to put it simply, I would say just a light wipe on the area.

You can put more when working on a capillary action piece (pipe in a fitting, with the fitting at the bottom), as when you heat it and the flux liquifies, it will drop into the gap between the pipe and fitting, which is also where you want to solder to fill. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Distillnation]

Yeah, I thought it might have been a bit on the fine side, but it's all I could find in my dad's shed at the time... Needs a really good clean out in there.

Thanks that pretty much sums up what I needed to know. I've got a couple couplings, one for the still and one for practice. I might give that a shot tonight or tomorrow.

What do people use to hold their work when soldering. For these small test pieces the vice works fine, but when I'm doing the still it might be a bit more awkward.

Oh, and I'd just like to apologise in advance for all the questions I've asked and most likely will ask. I have done reading up on these topics but after hundreds of posts it starts to blend together and you forget where you saw things or if you just think you saw a post that most likely was just wishful thinking.

I'm happy to say I left the pipe with water in it and the only leak was from my makeshift bung in the end of it :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Brendan]

Keeping the job still is where your ingenuity comes into play...depending on the size and shape of the job, I've used a vice, planks of timber, steel wire, fire bricks...

My 3" column I stood upright and stabilised by tying steel wire to my home gym...

Make something work...but remember anything metal will conduct the heat away... :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Distillnation]

Yeah hah, it definitely gets trickier when you're working on larger pieces.

I finally made some progress on the still today. Thankfully I had an extra pair of hands to help keep it steady while doing it.

I cut out the old reflux tube (minus an inch or so which I left in the column), and measured up the replacement piece.

After cutting and sanding and fluxing, we lined it up, put it in place and soldered it down. We had a few runs of solder here and there, but that's fine. I'm not worried about how it looks, more so about how it works, and it hasn't leaked yet so I'm happy! I can always work on making my next one look pretty when I get better at soldering.

Here is what it looks like now. (There is about 15mm of pipe going into the dam now).

IMG_20130313_112618.jpg

I'm waiting on the ferrule/tri-clamp/seal to get here (sent off yesterday), and then I can get that done. Then it's all just a matter of getting the needle valve and installing that.

Can't wait to do more work on it. It actually sucks that I can't do anything else to it right now. I was rather enjoying myself.

Cheers

[Yummyrum]

Hi Distillnation
Looks good what youve done.

You will need to get a 2" coupling as well.You need this to join the ferrule to the pipe unless your 2" pipe is some of that Kiwi stuff thats 2" ID