Wineos after Spirit run

[grasmere]

This is my second Wineos 46 Ltr plus 9.5kg sugar total 53 Ltrs run and on both occasions have found little Hearts almost all Heads.
After 2x Stripping runs I changed the column to reflux.
I collected in 36 x300ml jars, but found that I still had to collect in a 5 Ltr container as well
It started with 100%+ Alcohol reflux top temp 78.5c
It was still 98% at 80c after 33 jars plus 5 Ltr Jar
Then went down rapidly 95% at 83c
Just about stopped at 63% at 98c
Is this normal having so much Heads and no Hearts or tails

[Tesla101]

I'd be keen to hear about your fermentation details, maybe there's a problem there...

[Sam.]

How fast are you running it?

Also what are you comparing the hearts from this run against?

[grasmere]

Hello Tesla
I added10.5kg sugar into 46Ltrs of 35c water to my 80 Ltr Fermenter to an sg of 1.075
2tsp DAP
1/4 tsp Epson Salt
1 cup of Bakers Yeast
12 Oct 1.058 p/h 3.8. Added 4tsp Calcium Carbonate
14 Oct 1.020 p/h 3.8 Added 4tsp Ditto
15 Oct 1.005 p/h 4.0 Ditto
16 Oct 1.005 p/h 4,0 Ditto
17 Oct 1.003 p/h 3,8 Ditto
19 Oct 1.003 p/h 3.8 Ditto
Finished fermenting at this stage and put into two containers to settle out.
On the previous run using more or less the same ingredients I was able to get the ph up to 4.5 using Calcium Carbonate, but I wasn't sure how much I should be using this time.
After approx. 5 days I did 2 stripping runs using the appropriate column and then with old wineos which tasted horrible, I dont know what wet carboard tastes like, but this could have been it, I did
a reflux column run.
I look forward to any suggestions-

[grasmere]

Hello Sam I am comparing wineos to TSP runs that I have done before when doing cuts into 300 ml jars and separating into Heads Hearts and Tails
I am using a 35Ltr Brewzilla whereby the cooling water is automatically adjusted and a pin hole on the outlet adjust the outflow

[RC Al]

Brewzilla = bad due to being run by temprature

This explains the heads through your hearts, you either need to resarch how to add a power controller and bypass the temp control, or chage up to a different boiler

Not sure how the first lot made it through, perhaps you senses are getting better

What is running you cooling water?

[howard]

Hello Sam I am comparing wineos to TSP runs that I have done before when doing cuts into 300 ml jars and separating into Heads Hearts and Tails
I am using a 35Ltr Brewzilla whereby the cooling water is automatically adjusted and a pin hole on the outlet adjust the outflow

the brewzilla will smear everything.
neither setting or combination of the brewzillas elements are real good for distilling.
i have re-wired my brewzilla to use a power controller on the 1900w element only.
works great now.
and 'cooling water is automatically adjusted', how does that work?

the wash looks like it fermented out to about 9.5 ABV ok.
what % did you strip down to, and what was the % and volume of the spirit run?
maths was never my strong point, but those jar amounts seem wrong. (maybe it's just late :? )

[grasmere]

When I say automatically cooling water I have a water tank with pump and the reflux top temps are as I stated, and seem to be correct to give trickle of spirit on the outlet. This is how they are meant to be! I take no body has a negative on my Fermenting?

[grasmere]

Postby Meatheadinc » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:44 pm

the temp is in direct relation to the composition of vapour/liquid.
the boiler will boiler at a temp determined by alcohol %

Pure water boils at 100 deg
pure ethanol boils at approx. 78 deg

The mix of the two boil somewhere in between and will increase in temp as alcohol is depleted.

the head temp will indicate vapour temp. vapour temp is also governed by composition

the boiler is not changing power settings. temp increases as alcohol depletes. full power full time

you don't really need a controller

[The Stig]

Of course you do need a controller , unless your building the elements to absolutely suit the perfect size of the column.
If , like most people around here, you buy the elements available all you can do is control the power going to the elements to suit the size of column.
Or am I being thick 8-}

[howard]

Postby Meatheadinc » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:44 pm

the temp is in direct relation to the composition of vapour/liquid.
the boiler will boiler at a temp determined by alcohol %

Pure water boils at 100 deg
pure ethanol boils at approx. 78 deg

The mix of the two boil somewhere in between and will increase in temp as alcohol is depleted.

the head temp will indicate vapour temp. vapour temp is also governed by composition

the boiler is not changing power settings. temp increases as alcohol depletes. full power full time

you don't really need a controller

i am a comparative newbie and it took me ages to get my head around this, but i wrote this to someone who was struggling with the concept, in the hope they may understand more. voltage controllers are absolutely essential IMHO
hope this helps getting your head around it.
"the voltage controller will be particularly useful on spirit runs (reflex & pot) when the boil has to be controlled to keep the vapour speed at a consistent rate, which can only be achieved by controlling the voltage.
i joined about the same time as you and it took me a while for the penny to drop lol
you do not ,and cannot control the boil temp, and the temperature gauges are just for additional casual reference during the run.
ie if the mash you are heating ( a mixture of water/ethanol/etc) has a boiling point of 83.65c, that's what it will boil at. no more, no less.
as the vapour leaves the mash, the remaining liquid will have a different ratio of water/ethanol/etc and the boiling point will change slowly.
think of heating pure water with whatever size element you can get, it will always boil at 100C (altitude dependant obv), whether you have a 500w or 5000w element, the only difference will be the amount of vapour.
then you have to marry up the vapour speed with whatever method of cooling management/takeoff arrangement your still has."
so i think the only way to control the rate of vapour, and therefore obtain reflux and/or consistent separation, is by altering the voltage

[grasmere]

Thank you for the reply Howard
Where is the probe set to control the power controller?

[The Stig]

Where is the probe set to control the power controller?

There is no "probe" you simply plug your element into the controller and plug the controller into power.
The controller then controls the WATTS going to the element

[grasmere]

Meatheadinc writes on 19 Mar 2015
"the boiler is not changing power settings. temp increases as alcohol depletes. full power full time"

[howard]

Thank you for the reply Howard
Where is the probe set to control the power controller?

there is no probe, you are controlling vapour volume and vapour speed (i think)
the voltage controller usually has a digital display from 0 - 240v
when you adjust the setting, by turning a knob, the display will show you what voltage you are giving to the element.
ie so for bringing the wash to a boil, it's on full blast (240v)
when the wash gets to it's boiling point,on a strip run, you can turn the voltage down to 95v for instance to remove fores slowly. then up to full power to strip the rest.
don't quote me on this, but this way you are controlling the rate of boil and hence the vapour speed.
more importantly, in reflux mode, you have the wash boiling at a very consistent rate, which in turn creates steady reflux.
i repeat, you cannot control the temp of the wash.
temp gauges are nice to look at, but i really don't take much notice of them anymore.
maybe just to tell me the wash is approaching temp to turn the PC water on.

[grasmere]

"when the wash gets to it's boiling point,on a strip run, you can turn the voltage down to 95v for instance to remove fores slowly. then up to full power to strip the rest.
don't quote me on this, but this way you are controlling the rate of boil and hence the vapour speed.

Are you not still using the reflux column outlet temperature to control the Base temperature?
My problem was not the outlet temp of 78.5c with Alc cont of 100% and base at 86c but that the alc cont. lasted so long before turning down when the base started to rise

[Tesla101]

I haven't run a Brewzilla, but I assume it's a CM still when in reflux mode. The thing with these types of stills (like a T500 without power control that refluxes at 2000W) is that if you run it too fast it's going to smear badly. How long did it take to do your spirit run? The only way I could get a decent neutral out of a T500 was to run it low and slow - meaning a 24L spirit run took about 15 hours.

I don't see too many issues with your ferment. The pH was a bit low for a wash destined to be a neutral, but that will just bring through some unwanted esters. I aim for a pH of ~5.0 for to-be neutral washes.

I think you just need to run it slower, just a "drip, drip, dribble" rather than a constant stream.

[RC Al]

After a bit of a reread I think we are dealing with an t500/alcoengine/black maxiumus? Hence the obsession with probes, please let us know or post a pic if you dont know what brand/type your unit is. Brewzilla is a boiler not a still.

As Sam asked before, What was your take off rate? If it didnt take you at least 10 hours plus heat up time for your nearly 15l collected, you were going too fast, pure and simple, your pushing it at 1.5l/h with any of those stills due to the lack of packing height.

Dont confuse abv with purity, very different things, 95 can still taste like crap as you have found

Gee, im going to have to type faster it seems lols

[howard]

"when the wash gets to it's boiling point,on a strip run, you can turn the voltage down to 95v for instance to remove fores slowly. then up to full power to strip the rest.
don't quote me on this, but this way you are controlling the rate of boil and hence the vapour speed.

Are you not still using the reflux column outlet temperature to control the Base temperature?
My problem was not the outlet temp of 78.5c with Alc cont of 100% and base at 86c but that the alc cont. lasted so long before turning down when the base started to rise

nope, i have no control over temperature, i just have control over the rate of boil.

basically, you do not control the boiling temp of any liquid, the boiling temp is already set by the make up of the liquid.(except with pressure obv)
you have to understand this concept or we could go around in circles for a long time.

one more analogy (it is late lol)
a pan of water
bring to boil
turn down power to simmer = a bit of steam
turn power to medium = lot of steam
turn power on full = shit loads of steam
what did you have have control of?
just the power and the amount of vapour, the water stayed at 100c at all times.

so it's the power you need to control, and marry up the vapour speed/volume with your particular RC coolant set up and perform the reflux dance.
don't worry, as the copious entries in my distilling notebook will attest, i was fixated with the temp readings when i started. :D

[grasmere]

I I am surprised seeing 144 views that not one has a good word to say about the Brewzilla 35 Ltr and that it should not be run the way manufacturers intended it to run. I am sure Kegland Home brew supplies would have something to say about that.
I finished with 25 ltrs of 40c spirit all apart from the final 2 jars smelled and tasted the same, even these two were within the heads temp of 90c at 63%Alc
I couldn't say at what rate the outlet flow was. I usually keep the plastic tube inside the glass tube to keep a constant temperature measurement going. As for the time taken, I don't know.
I ran the brewzilla the way it is intended to be run. Cooling Water started about 60c, started dripping at 78.5c with base temp of 86c, set at 102c.This went on as I said for 33 x 300 mil jars, before dropping slightly to 79c outlet and 98c Base Finishing at 90c outlet and 101c Base. A further 5 Ltr demijohn was made