Simple Stilling Questions.

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Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby SURFFOILS » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:12 pm

If you do multiple distillations, do you get Foreshots each time ?
What general % of a wash can you expect to keep as drinkable distillate or what % is likely to be thrown away ?
What aromas am I looking for to make cuts and blend or am I looking for the absence of aromas ?
How good are the results obtained by using essences ? Or is it best to source botanicals and experiment ?
Thanks for your help guys.
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby MaKa » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:22 pm

I suggest having a read of this post:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2859

That should answer most of your questions about cuts
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby SURFFOILS » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:23 pm

Thank you.
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby The Stig » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:59 pm

Too many variables to answer the question
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby Radnelac » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:35 pm

SURFFOILS wrote:If you do multiple distillations, do you get Foreshots each time ?
What general % of a wash can you expect to keep as drinkable distillate or what % is likely to be thrown away ?
What aromas am I looking for to make cuts and blend or am I looking for the absence of aromas ?
How good are the results obtained by using essences ? Or is it best to source botanicals and experiment ?
Thanks for your help guys.


Might be good to know what still you are running as well SURFFOILS :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby SURFFOILS » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:29 pm

Hi Calendar, I’ve got a host of small stills from an old airstill to several cheap pot stills.
I was asking about the foreshots to find out if the methanol and fusel oils are a product of the heat of distillation and are eliminated in the first round of cuts OR reappear in subsequent distillations.
If they aren’t , then why re-still if you already have the best distillate ?
If they do reappear then why not make tighter cuts in the first run ?
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby Sam. » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:40 pm

If you have a reflux still with enough plates (or packing (hypothetical plates)) and you can bring the still to equilibrium under full reflux this will separate the compounds well in the still.

If you then take off product at a sensible rate those compounds will come over separate.

Then there are all the variables of what type of wash, type of still, power, reflux, take off speed etc.

If you run a still well then if you make a decent foreshots cuts it should be gone.

Not sure if I answered anything....
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby bluc » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:49 pm

Pot still(air still as an example of a pot still) will smear, push late heads early tails into the hearts cut because it does not sepearte the fractions cleanly.
. Foreshots are the very first thing off the still and are usually disposed of in first run.(only in case of re running the same spirit).
if you have a big fermenter, more than you can run in one go, then you need to do fores cut on each batch that goes into the boiler(along with usuall heads hearts and tails cuts).
I recomend doing a fores cut even on a stripping run and disposing of that cut without smelling tasting. Just my opinion but concentrating the fores cut by distilling and doing cuts then saving up the fores is asking for trouble..possability of it being mistaken for hearts, being drank straight or mixed back into hearts giving that spirit a very high concentration of the nasty crap that is a part of distilling. If you must keep for colour them and label them clearly..
If doing a run and stopping mid way then starting again in a day or so, then ditching first jar. Is more a sub heads cut which wont be fores as such but may be a higher concentration of compounds found in the heads. Along with some compounds that form in the still, especially with copper stills that you dont want in the hearts cut.

Same thing happens in other stills, pot with thumper, plated column and reflux still just at varying degress. A reflux still as an example compresses the fractions a lot more and you get more defined cuts with less smearing but it still happens. Compounds in distillation are formed during distillation form during fermantation, mostly. There are some compounds that form during distillation like sters that are produced by different acids being boild along with ethanol, in some cases these are wanted especially in rum where long full reflux period can be beneficial to ester production.
I agree with the others that you should read kiwi distillers guide to cuts and re read it until you understand it. Hope this helps :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby bluc » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:11 pm

Sorry just to clarify. Most compounds are formed during fermentation. Methanol fores /etheyl acetate heads/ fussel oils tails, as examples. Esters, (artificial flavours), dark fruit-sultanas and banana , are formed during distillation when acids are boiled along with ethanol. Drinks like rum benifit from ester production.
Last edited by bluc on Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby SURFFOILS » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:19 pm

Thanks Sam and bluc, I appreciate your advice.

What I’m learning is that a ferment isn’t a compound but more a mixture with varying %’s of compounds.
It makes me wonder why someone would later do a feints run if the desireable compounds have already been removed ?
Last edited by SURFFOILS on Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby bluc » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:53 pm

Your bang on the money it is a mix of varing % of compounds. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
An all feints brown spirit run can be a very special thing on a pot still taste wise.
Reason for all feints run, when you cut out heads or tails on a pot still , volumes are just an example, 500ml of the tails cut 300ml of that may be good ethanol that didnt seperate off the 200ml manky tails. Same other end...the 500ml heads you didnt include first time may inclue 250ml good ethanol along with the 250ml harsh "heads" compounds. Then when you combine heads and tails for a feints run and run that again you refine it further.
So from the 1l of heads tails combined you pull maybe 300ml good ethanol. Which has been heavily influenced from flavour compounds from the heads and tails giving a unique flavoured spirit then can only be reproduced from an identical feints run(lots variable very hard to reproduce exact flavours from a feints run..)
.now with a reflux still or plated colum fractions are a lot more compressed and cuts are a lot more refined. So from 500ml waste maybe only 50 or 100ml is good ethanol. So from a reflux or plated colum I dont bother with feints runs because theres not enough good alcohol.

Just my opinions and are just examples not saying this is how much you will definately get. But there is a lot more good alcohol wasted from a pot still for sure..
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby Sam. » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:13 pm

bluc wrote:If doing a run and stopping mid way then starting again in a day or so, then ditching first jar. Is more a sub heads cut which wont be fores as such but may be a higher concentration of compounds found in the heads. Along with some compounds that form in the still, especially with copper stills that you dont want in the hearts cut.
:


What are you referencing here with the copper?
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby bluc » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:17 pm

Only what I have read here and other forums about dirty stills and blue distillate... :-B
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby bluc » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:34 pm

I have had bit of blue crap myself couple times and just figure it may be there even if not visable in first cut jar after still sits for x amount of time....better just to ditch a jar when restarting a run weather its for heads crap or other contanaments...stainless I dont know but never heatd of blue distilate out a stainless spout...sulphides from stainless are a different story...
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Condensation Temps.

Postby SURFFOILS » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:22 pm

I’ve found that if I keep a very chilled condensation temp of 17-25°C around the copper coils it’s a drip, drip , drip out the tube.
But if I let the water temp sit at 45-52°C then it becomes a river of flow. It’s ‘The Ganges of Alcohol’ from the same energy input, same ferment, same time frame.
With a lower temp I get maybe 500 mls.
At the higher temp I get 1100 -1500mls in the same time frame.
Any thoughts ???
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby db1979 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:54 am

You haven't told us what type of still you're referring to. You said earlier that you run a range of stills and to answer this question properly we need to know what still you're using.
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Re: Condensation Temps.

Postby bluc » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:11 am

SURFFOILS wrote:I’ve found that if I keep a very chilled condensation temp of 17-25°C around the copper coils it’s a drip, drip , drip out the tube.
But if I let the water temp sit at 45-52°C then it becomes a river of flow. It’s ‘The Ganges of Alcohol’ from the same energy input, same ferment, same time frame.
With a lower temp I get maybe 500 mls.
At the higher temp I get 1100 -1500mls in the same time frame.
Any thoughts ???


No way having a hotter condenser would increase output having more power to the boiler would. A colder condenser will not allow vapour to pass. If your condenser is to hot you may lose vapour and lose output. As well as being the dangerous situation of having ethanol vapour filling your room...
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby coffe addict » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:32 am

Only thing I can think is he has a basic hbs reflux still like essencia or turbo 500 no other style measures the coolant temp like that :think:
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby bluc » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:46 am

Ahh yes hotter reflux condener temp would make a diff :shifty: :oops:
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Re: Simple Stilling Questions.

Postby SURFFOILS » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:55 am

Hi guys, sorry I didn’t explain more.
It’s a very basic Chinese pot still that’s a bit battered but still working.
I get a constant temp running in the pot and on 2 probes at the top of the condenser.
I didn’t have a inlet tube for the cool water so I was filling with a jug and I noticed that whenever I put cold water in, the flow almost halted immediately, or within a few seconds. But then built up over the following minute.
Sometimes I was slow filling with the cold water and the flow was quite good, but only until I put the cold water in.
I then measured the temp of the water when the flow was best and it’s around 45°C.
I’ll take a video and show you...
But I agree that this shouldn’t be true, colder water should create greater condensation.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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