Mash not required

all about mashing and fermenting grains

Re: Mash not required

Postby bluc » Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:39 pm

Oops yep bit low what was your total volume kept? I have been keeping 7.5ish from 30kg grain..
Last edited by bluc on Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby brisvalleymoonshiner » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:18 pm

I had 14 jars of 300ml so probably 1/2 of what you got Bluc. Next time I'll be doubling the amount of yeast. I think that's why it took such a long time to ferment. Surprisingly it did soften up the corn well, that was after approx 8 weeks fermenting
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Re: Mash not required

Postby bluc » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:37 pm

I have not gelled the mash first, yet..
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Re: Mash not required

Postby brisvalleymoonshiner » Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:40 pm

My only thing is. Would it replace traditional mashing of grains? I think not. Can you use another yeast with it to add a flavour from the yeast?
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Re: Mash not required

Postby bluc » Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:23 pm

Depends if your happy with end result. My thoughts are yes will completely replace traditional mashing for me. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Mash not required

Postby brisvalleymoonshiner » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:31 pm

bluc wrote:Depends if your happy with end result. My thoughts are yes will completely replace traditional mashing for me. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Definitely been a good thread to follow. Would be good to see a commercial distillery have a crack at it and give us their thoughts
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Re: Mash not required

Postby PeterC » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:49 pm

So, I have based on the information here, started doing this and have some questions and some information to share.

First batch 20kg crushed barley and 80L hot water, cooled and pitched with 100g of Angel. Had some wild yeast start the process at around 45C while it was cooling. Stirred twice a day first 3 days then again a week later. Left it to ferment out for total of 3 weeks. Had a rank smell, could see bubbling activity but no cap formed on the top. Racked off clear liquid and squeezed out the rest to get 70L liquid. Ran on 4 plates 2000W power. Take-off rate about 2-2.5L/hr. Using 330ml bottles collected 120ml Fores, only 350ml heads, 3.5L hearts, then 1.4L tails with the last 400ml going cloudy. Hearts collection started at 93% down to 69% with and average of 78%. Stopped tails collection at 51%. So wash ABV about 5.7%

Second batch same as above but used 60L cold water, smelt a lot nicer. The wash took on a pink coloration and there was pink yeast cells (I assume) laying on top of the bed. Used a BIAB mesh bag to squeeze out liquid but need to find a better method. Got 140ml Fores, 350ml heads, 5.3L hearts, stopped collecting at 61% ABV and things were slowing and fogging on plates. Hearts average was 80%. Estimated wash ABV about 8.8%

Both batches tasted a bit dry and astringent. Could this be scorching? My element didn't have much on it (see photo) but the wash did darken a bit during the boil. Maybe some filtration will help? I have a cartridge filter that may help take some solids out. My normal mashing has stronger grain aroma and slight sweetness. This method is very efficient if I can get it to taste a little better. Have 20kg of corn to run next and then trying it with 25kg Munich malt barley.

Cheers.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby virge » Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:26 am

Hi PeterC, thank you for sharing your valuable experience. I also followed this topic and have been reading all the posts.
At present I am at your first batch, nearly the same, only used 7kg crushed corn, 2KG crushed malted barley and 1Kg crushed malted rye, 40 L hot water at about 60degree Celsius and 50g angel yeast per 50L barrel. I have 3 of those barrels ready now for distillation. Exactly the same experience: rank smell, no cap. I still have to rack them off and I will run all I get through a 4 plate bubbler. In my case, the fermentation took more than a month because of the cooler night weather specific to my location. I will see next week what I get. I will do next batch with the same ingredients the only difference will be using 30L cold water as you did.
Thanks again and Happy New Year
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Re: Mash not required

Postby PeterC » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:07 pm

Did a batch of corn. Bought 20kg feed grade crushed corn and gristed it a bit finer. 60L of cold water and 100g of angel yeast. Did the usual stirring for the first few days plus a few extra. Ferment was very clean and smelt just fine. Left it for 27 days before distilling. The last 4 days I could see the wash was clearing. got a bit more than 50L for the wash. The spent grain looked very clean only skins and kernels left. Compared to barley there was less material left and less sludge. Had nothing scorch or settle out in the boiler unlike the barley. Ran on 4 plates, 100ml Fores, 320ml heads, 3.88L hearts, 400ml tails and stopped the still at 78% because collection had slowed right down. My hearts were at 90% average so my wash abv was over 8.3% much better than when I tried to mash corn. So technically things went well. Taste wise although clean, the spirit seems dryer and has less sweet corn type flavour. I think yeast type has a significant bearing on the taste. I will put on some oak staves to see how it develops.

I am now going to try wheat, rice and malted barley with this method. I am hopeful the rice might make a very good vodka or neutral and be low cost. The malted barley will be interesting but so far I am liking the flavour from traditional mashing of malt barley for my finest whiskeys. I have a Barrett Burston malt on Mangrove Jack M42 New World Strong Ale Yeast that I am thinking is had to beat.
Cheers.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby RC Al » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:16 pm

Not sure how you can gauge the wash abv without seeing how much tails there were?
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Re: Mash not required

Postby bluc » Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:17 pm

Its just enzyme and yeast i cant see why we cant add our own yeast. Weather it out competes the strain in the angel i dont know..
Being dryer is a good sign of a more complete ferment fermentation. It picks up fair amount sweetness from the oak.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby PeterC » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:37 pm

RC Al wrote:Not sure how you can gauge the wash abv without seeing how much tails there were?

I tally up all my cuts volumes and ABV's and convert back to total volume of alcohol at 100% then divide this by the wash volume to get approximate wash ABV. The actual value should be better than I claim because of what is still left behind on the plates and in the boiler but I don't think it is much more with collection slowing, windows fogging and the boiler at 97 degrees C. So it is a rough estimate to help others trying this. I have had poor results trying to mash corn so this interests me.

bluc wrote:Its just enzyme and yeast i cant see why we cant add our own yeast. Weather it out competes the strain in the angel i dont know..
Being dryer is a good sign of a more complete ferment fermentation. It picks up fair amount sweetness from the oak.

Worth a try, was thinking to try Kveik yeast, high alcohol tolerance probably doesn't matter but the high temperature tolerance could help. They say the Mangrove Jack M12 is neutral with a hint of citrus, it has 20-40C fermentation range with above 30C being best.

There is certainly more experimental work to do.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby bluc » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:40 pm

I have some saf spirit burbon yeast I will chuck some in next mash see what happens.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Mash not required

Postby EziTasting » Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:49 pm

Been wondering for a while now what effect a mix of yeast strains would have on the end flavour... be very keen to see results!

Would be watching with interest.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby RuddyCrazy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:51 pm

G'Day Guy's,
Got an email from aussie post this morning saying my angel yeast will be delivered at the end of this week or early next week :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance: Now what give me the shits I ordered this back in November and the package hit our shores on the 3rd December and it taken this long to process. So the slow boat from China is today quicker than aussie post :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: and one has to wonder if aussie post should re-named snail mail :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:
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Re: Mash not required

Postby MartinCash » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:26 am

RuddyCrazy wrote:G'Day Guy's,
Got an email from aussie post this morning saying my angel yeast will be delivered at the end of this week or early next week :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance: Now what give me the shits I ordered this back in November and the package hit our shores on the 3rd December and it taken this long to process. So the slow boat from China is today quicker than aussie post :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: and one has to wonder if aussie post should re-named snail mail :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:


Going off topic but I promise to keep it short.

This reminds me of the time I sent a 100 kg parcel from Madrid, Spain, to Tasmania.

Timings:
  1. Madrid-Valencia-Singapore-Melbourne: 4 weeks
  2. Melbourne-Tasmania: 7 weeks

Price:
  1. Home pickup in Madrid, road freight to the port, and ship transfer in Singapore, through to Melbourne: $250
  2. Toll freight Mel-Tas, where I had to pick it up myself: $350
Makes you want to cry. :angry-banghead:
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Re: Mash not required

Postby BradM » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:33 am

Same with me - I have a small parcel from China that arrived in Aus on the 6th of December - still haven't seen it. Customs and Auspost must still be on their Christmas break.
:?
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Re: Mash not required

Postby wynnum1 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:40 pm

BradM wrote:Same with me - I have a small parcel from China that arrived in Aus on the 6th of December - still haven't seen it. Customs and Auspost must still be on their Christmas break.
:?

Friend had this happen last year from U.S. and showed cleared customs in Sydney and took two weeks to arrive in Brisbane.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby Lesgold » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:51 pm

Just sitting back tasting my “well aged” UJ variation using Angel Yeast. Used chips for 10 days and then let it sit for another 10. It actually shows some potential. It’s actually quite drinkable. Still a bit sharpe but the flavour and sweetness is coming through. Time to scale up now and age some for 12 months. I reckon it’s going to be a step up from the usual UJ recipe.
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Re: Mash not required

Postby RuddyCrazy » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:50 am

G'day Guy's,
Well sitting down for a caffine this morning and a email came in so off I went :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

angel yeast.jpg


Me thinks it's time to get that fruit press finished and a trip to the fodder store is on the cards :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance: :happy-partydance:

Cheers Bryan
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