Enzymes

[rug]

Hi

I could not find a topic about enzymes.

Since this hobby is illegal almost everywhere information is difficult...

[rug]

So my first enzyme question is:
Is glucanase the same as glucoamylase? :-B

[RuddyCrazy]

Mate as your just starting out it's better to cut your teeth on some of the Tried & True Recipes so you can learn cut's etc :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Mate when I started out CFW was my favorite and doing 5 generations made for a very nice whisky 12 months later then when I went to AG just malting my own grain did mean enzymes didn't even cross my mind :laughing-rolling:

So small steps as you learn mate now as some can jump into the rabbithole others may need to walk slowly as the art of making your favorite drop is easy if you do it right. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Cheers Bryan

[chipboy]

To answer your question beta glucanase is not glucoamalayse.

[rug]

Mate as your just starting out it's better to cut your teeth on some of the Tried & True Recipes so you can learn cut's etc :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Mate when I started out CFW was my favorite and doing 5 generations made for a very nice whisky 12 months later then when I went to AG just malting my own grain did mean enzymes didn't even cross my mind :laughing-rolling:

So small steps as you learn mate now as some can jump into the rabbithole others may need to walk slowly as the art of making your favorite drop is easy if you do it right. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Cheers Bryan

Sorry :) Im "newbee" in the "next steps" :D In this hobby I belive I will be a newbee all my life... Incredible complex hobby.

Have rebuild and improved my T500 (water, tempcontrol, length, filling etc), I does cuts, done sugar washes, tomato paste, my gin is said to be better than the commercial ones.
In my language I have a decease called "dilla", not sure if English language has a similar expression.
My next step is a single oat whisky, but i plan for an oat vodka first for improving and learning.

A unused barrel is at my shelf, first bourbon, then a Irish whisky, then a scotch...and finally a rum. And then I plan to try a Nordic aqua vitae as a last use (i will probably put sherry in the barrel first :D
All this will take years :happy-partydance:

[rug]

To answer your question beta glucanase is not glucoamalayse.

:angry-banghead:
Sorry for my bad language, my question was not good :) :-B ... but thanks for your answer 8-}

[chipboy]

But the good news is they do similar things one more completely that the other. Depends what you are trying to achieve as to which you might use or both.

Don't worry it took me half an age to figure out thee two, not a lot in plain english around its all chemistry technical stuff.

[oddian]

It is a good question though as I've often found it hard to work out which enzymes do what and what which temps.

I know they aren't strictly necessary, but sometimes they are useful as is the knowledge of each one.

Does anyone have a good reference that talks about each one, what it does and what stage / temp it's used at? I've also found this quite hard to find.

[howard]

It is a good question though as I've often found it hard to work out which enzymes do what and what which temps.

I know they aren't strictly necessary, but sometimes they are useful as is the knowledge of each one.

Does anyone have a good reference that talks about each one, what it does and what stage / temp it's used at? I've also found this quite hard to find.

different manufacturers have their own specs and you should research your particular supplier for temps and PH ranges.
the other thing is that i find most info leans towards beer brewing and talk about natural enzymes, but there is some useful info in there that we can apply. i have collected some docs along the way, some are pretty basic, the Novozymes booklet gets as complicated as you want( plus you have to ignore their adverts)

Understanding Enzymes.docx

mash chemistry 101.docx

Novozymes_Brewing_Handbook.pdf

[Wellsy]

Rug many of us are happy to stay at newbie level lol
Keeps everyone’s expectations reasonable :)

[oddian]

It is a good question though as I've often found it hard to work out which enzymes do what and what which temps.

I know they aren't strictly necessary, but sometimes they are useful as is the knowledge of each one.

Does anyone have a good reference that talks about each one, what it does and what stage / temp it's used at? I've also found this quite hard to find.

different manufacturers have their own specs and you should research your particular supplier for temps and PH ranges.
the other thing is that i find most info leans towards beer brewing and talk about natural enzymes, but there is some useful info in there that we can apply. i have collected some docs along the way, some are pretty basic, the Novozymes booklet gets as complicated as you want( plus you have to ignore their adverts)

Understanding Enzymes.docx

mash chemistry 101.docx

Novozymes_Brewing_Handbook.pdf

Wonderful thank you howard, I'll check them out.

[chipboy]

Howard, thank you all good reads.

[rug]

Today I learned that glocoamylase is "the same" as betaamylase....or did I learn wrong? :angry-banghead:

[howard]

Today I learned that glocoamylase is "the same" as betaamylase....or did I learn wrong? :angry-banghead:

i have wondered myself, but apparently not.
Glucoamylase is preferred over beta-amylase because it works on a wider range of starch bonds. It'll break 1-4 and 1-6, whereas beta-amylase work only on 1-4, leaving some starches behind as unfermentable.

my current understanding ( :think: ) is that......
alpha & beta amylase occurs naturally in malted grain.
glucoamylase i buy is commercially produced.

not to be confused with beta-glucanase enzyme which is not used on starch, but is used to break down beta-glucans in rye,wheat, barley etc.
glucans can gum up your mash if not broken down by enzymes or glucan rests.

one of the simplest explanations i've found is.......
"Typically you are looking at a 3 step conversion process to turn grain starch into fermentable sugars.

Gelatinization – Process of solubilizing starch granules in water. Typically accomplished by grinding grain and heating in the presence of water.
Liquefaction – Initial breakdown of solubilized starch. Converts starch into dextrins (random sugars)
Saccharification – Final breakdown of dextrins into fermentable sugars.

These have to be done in order or, in some cases, simultaneously. It is not a good idea to try to saccharify liquefied starch, nor is it a good idea to try to liquefy un-gelatinized starch.

Enzymes do not assist gelatinization typically. They are generally used for liquefaction and/or saccharification.

Liquefaction we are talking alpha-amylases. Of which there are thee main temperature ranges (already listed in above posts). The ideal part about using a high temperature alpha-amylase is that simultaneous gelatinization and liquefaction can take place at 80-90 C.

Saccharification we are talking beta-amylases or glucoamylases (every enzyme that has “amylase” in it will work on starch because starch = “amylose”). Beta-amylases are common in brewing (as it is found in malted barley) and will work to produce maltose, glucose, and other unfermentable sugars. Glucoamylases are frequently used by distilleries because it will convert all dextrins (random sugars) into glucose. Additionally glucoamylase has a side 1, 6 activity which will allow further degradation of some sugars that were previously unfermentable.

Beta-Glucanases on the other hand are a hemicellulase that will work to break down a very specific compound found commonly in wheat, barley, rye, and oats called beta-glucan. Beta-glucans can cause viscosity issues and gum up a mash or an immersion heater. This enzyme has little to no effect on starch and sugar conversions/yields.

Alpha-amylase is used for Liquefaction, Glucoamylase is good for Saccharification, and Beta-Glucanase is generally only applicable to rye, wheat, or barley mashes.

[rug]

Today I learned that glocoamylase is "the same" as betaamylase....or did I learn wrong? :angry-banghead:

i have wondered myself, but apparently not.
Glucoamylase is preferred over beta-amylase because it works on a wider range of starch bonds. It'll break 1-4 and 1-6, whereas beta-amylase work only on 1-4, leaving some starches behind as unfermentable.

my current understanding ( :think: ) is that......
alpha & beta amylase occurs naturally in malted grain.
glucoamylase i buy is commercially produced.

not to be confused with beta-glucanase enzyme which is not used on starch, but is used to break down beta-glucans in rye,wheat, barley etc.
glucans can gum up your mash if not broken down by enzymes or glucan rests.

one of the simplest explanations i've found is.......
"Typically you are looking at a 3 step conversion process to turn grain starch into fermentable sugars.

Gelatinization – Process of solubilizing starch granules in water. Typically accomplished by grinding grain and heating in the presence of water.
Liquefaction – Initial breakdown of solubilized starch. Converts starch into dextrins (random sugars)
Saccharification – Final breakdown of dextrins into fermentable sugars.

These have to be done in order or, in some cases, simultaneously. It is not a good idea to try to saccharify liquefied starch, nor is it a good idea to try to liquefy un-gelatinized starch.

Enzymes do not assist gelatinization typically. They are generally used for liquefaction and/or saccharification.

Liquefaction we are talking alpha-amylases. Of which there are thee main temperature ranges (already listed in above posts). The ideal part about using a high temperature alpha-amylase is that simultaneous gelatinization and liquefaction can take place at 80-90 C.

Saccharification we are talking beta-amylases or glucoamylases (every enzyme that has “amylase” in it will work on starch because starch = “amylose”). Beta-amylases are common in brewing (as it is found in malted barley) and will work to produce maltose, glucose, and other unfermentable sugars. Glucoamylases are frequently used by distilleries because it will convert all dextrins (random sugars) into glucose. Additionally glucoamylase has a side 1, 6 activity which will allow further degradation of some sugars that were previously unfermentable.

Beta-Glucanases on the other hand are a hemicellulase that will work to break down a very specific compound found commonly in wheat, barley, rye, and oats called beta-glucan. Beta-glucans can cause viscosity issues and gum up a mash or an immersion heater. This enzyme has little to no effect on starch and sugar conversions/yields.

Alpha-amylase is used for Liquefaction, Glucoamylase is good for Saccharification, and Beta-Glucanase is generally only applicable to rye, wheat, or barley mashes.

What you write is pretty much how I have concluded this far....

My big "missing link" was that it is very difficult to buy Beta amylase, and I need it in an "Oat-project" I have...
I could use maltet oat...there I find beta amylase but malted oat is not available where I live.

Then, yestereday, I listended to some old videos of "George" on youtube.....and there...the sentence....beta amylase can be replaced with glucoamylase... :obscene-birdiedoublered:

I am a big fan of George so please....do not start with all the crap I have read in different forums...

That guys channel is gold, pure simple gold.

[howard]

What you write is pretty much how I have concluded this far....

My big "missing link" was that it is very difficult to buy Beta amylase, and I need it in an "Oat-project" I have...
I could use maltet oat...there I find beta amylase but malted oat is not available where I live.

Then, yestereday, I listended to some old videos of "George" on youtube.....and there...the sentence....beta amylase can be replaced with glucoamylase... :obscene-birdiedoublered:
well there you go, flaked oats have no DP and the sentence 'beta amylase can be replaced with glucoamylase' makes no sense.
so that's why the guys channel is best ignored.

[Wellsy]

Perhaps if know one knows more than George you would be best of writing to him for his advice. These guys tend to answer their channel questions very fast. I am dabbling in beer and I was confused about a hazy IPA receipe David heath did. I wrote and got an answer within 2 days.

[chipboy]

With no Beta amalayse, use Glucoamalayse as it will do as stated the job of the beta plus breaks other bonds the beta will not. Just to add to the complexity of this there are other enzymes that appear in fermentation that can do this job as well, allegedly. All part of the saccharification (spoelling not right) / sugar creation stage.

Its complicated but logical.

[RuddyCrazy]

G'Day Guy's,
Last week Grumble asked about moving the enzyme discussion to another thread which got me thinking all week :scared-eek: Well this thread already has some good info :handgestures-thumbupleft: So we could use this thread as the base.

As this enzyme business is only done with a few members and we have questions all the time from our new members how about this....

Just checked on fleabay and for 50off 100ml dropper bottles $30 :scared-eek: Now a 100ml one may say ain't enough for me but using 5ml each mash will give 20 mash's and this stuff from what I've read only has a 12 month shelf life.

So first we need to find the right enzymes and find out just how many different ones we need.

Then work out the numbers to see how many litres we need to buy for each one. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I will call myself a newbie with this aswell as I find malting my barely does give enough DP to fully convert. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

So let the discussion start so we can move forward with this. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Cheers Bryan

[GrumbleStill]

Good thread :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Personally I’ve found that a combination of alpha amylase and glucoamylase has done the trick on any of the unmalted grains I’ve used, ie corn, rye, oats and wheat. They are relatively easy to source, and all you need to do is make sure the grain is properly gelled, then follow the spec sheets for mash temperature and pH for whatever brand you buy.

If you’re new to enzymes, then it’s hard to go past the powdered stuff they sell at the home brew stores. It’s pretty easy to use, and doesn’t easily denature like the liquids. The limitation is that the alpha typically has a max temp of 80°C. That means you need to cook corn and let it cool before adding the stuff. (Read messy)

Liquid alphas can work at higher temps, allowing you to cook and convert at the same time. They can be a bit hard to get in small quantities though. Ive shopped around a bit, and found that mates rates home brewing supplies in Brissy have a good range of liquids, and sell them in 100ml bottles for around $10. They also have the spec sheets available to download.