Low Yeilds

[ginandtonic]

My first venture into all grain was a bit of a let down yield wise.
Wash was 5 kg wheat ( crushed ), 27 litres of water, 50 grams yellow label.
It fermented out and settled nicely.
There were 2 of these
After draining the 2 fermenters, there was about 46 litres of "wash " which was then " striped"
to leave me with only about 6 litres @40%
This seems low ?
Nut since its my first all grain - maybe its not as low as I think ?
Thoughts please ?
Gin and Tonic

[RuddyCrazy]

Mate if you to get into all grain ditch that yeast and grab or make some malt grain then do a mash :handgestures-thumbupleft: then as you learn what your making will be well worth the wait.

There is no real shortcuts to making that special drop well thats if want to make that special drop of just use that low yield yeast for average stuff. Well mate I did try that angel yeast once and yes the yield was dismal and to top it off the smell of stuff made me tip it out with never to go there again.

[Wellsy]

Hey Gin
It seems ok to me based on my beer brewing experience.
I usually use approx 7kg of various malts to end up with 21 litres of beer at about 5%. So that is approx 2.75 @ 40%. 5.5 litres if you double it. If my maths is ok you did quite well for your 5kg of grain.

[RobMichelle]

How where the gravity readings start and finish, and what was the abv of wash?
I’ve used AM-1 and results were ok but we all have different expectations .

[bluess57]

what was the wheat? diastatic power ?
how long did you leave it in the mash tun?
Iodine test to confirm full starch conversion ?

IMO, your results would seem to be within reason

[ginandtonic]

Thank you all,
BTW - my aim is to make the cleanest neutral i can.

Wellsy, That does makes me feel better :handgestures-thumbupleft:
but if i cant improve the yield, its probably not worth going all grain - well at least this recipe.

Rob, I have never taken gravity readings, so can not tell you. :?
I was always thinking that was too hard ( until I actually looked into it ) and was also thinking to myself,
that there was no point, and I guess Ill just end up with whatever alcohol production i get ( through the fermentation process )
But I can understand why it can be important sometimes.
Actually, now I think about it, because of the yeast I was using ( yellow label ) and the reason I was using it ( not having to mash up properly ),
I guess that the gravity reading would have been low relatively low anyway, and not really a true "initial ' reading,
because the enzyme in the yeast still had the job of converting the starch to sugar ?
BUT - gravity readings WILL become a step in the process from now on :-D

Ruddy,I am happy to ditch the yeast for another, and give it another try, with a different technique.
I was not sure what you meant by "grab or make some malt grain then do a mash "
I was incorrect when I said I used wheat - should have been more specific, and said "Coopers wheat malt "
So i'm guessing this is the correct product, BUT, you are suggesting I believe, to give it a proper mash ( boil for 1-1.5 hours ) for the conversion ?
Just got a new 65 litre brewzilla !
Then do you have a suggestion on yeast ? and other additions ?
I WILL take a gravity reading, and have the ability to take PH reading if I am looking for anything in particuar ?

Bluess57,
Coopers wheat malt ( Ill attempt to attach photo )
No to diastatic powder ( not familiar :doh: )
There was not mash tun - because I was using Angel Yellow - however I did add about 15 litres of boiling water to wheat, a really good stir, then top up with cold water after about 15 min.

Thank you all !!! ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^
:text-thankyoublue:
:text-thankyoublue:

[bluess57]

Not diastatic powder -> Diastatic Power it seems that coopers wheat malt has Dry Basis: 300 WK , it's the enzyme power of the malted grain, is considered very high, so would be ample for conversion.

Given you dumped boiling water on the wheat, you would have destroyed most the grain enzymes. Using Angel yellow label yeast provided enzyme for conversion.

Yes change your process and mash the grain in the brewzilla, taking care with proper mash temperatures and time. A mash temperature is often between 55-65 degrees ... Not boiling water.
Measure your specific gravity SG , FG

[howard]

what are you trying to make, wheat neutral or wheat whiskey?

malted wheat usually has a good diatastic power, but pouring boiling water onto it will probably kill all it's natural enzymes.
having said that, at the correct temp (30°C?) yellow angel yeast will do the job instead of the malted wheat enzymes.
using yellow angel, there isn't any SG as the stuff does it's own job.
there is no point in buying malted wheat (or malted anything) if you are going to pour boiling water on it.

maybe look at mashing in the brewzilla?
it will be another step down the rabbit hole :smile:
some good advice on beer brewing sites, as the mashing process is very similar/same.
lots to learn, but worth it.

[ginandtonic]

Making wheat Neutral ( for gin )
I'll give that a go and mash it up in the brewzilla.
Get some beer yeast I guess.
Take a ph reading, and see how she goes this time
Cheers

[Wellsy]

I suspect Howard was not suggesting using beer yeast, as this will potentially add flavours. Instead I think he was saying have a look at beer sites to understand mashing process when using malted grain. Malted grains need to be mashed at lower temp than boiling or you destroy the enzymes that are created through the malting process.
Hang in there as the rabbit hole gets deep quickly as there are many facets to learn about,but you will get there :handgestures-thumbupleft: :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[howard]

Making wheat Neutral ( for gin )
I'll give that a go and mash it up in the brewzilla.
Get some beer yeast I guess.
Take a ph reading, and see how she goes this time
Cheers

i'm not saying don't bother with mashing wheat, but have you considered using some of the sugar washes (FFV TPW etc), if you are making neutral for gin.
i find the FFV (which has wheat bran) very easy to produce.
if you want ethanol, what is more simpler than sugar and bakers yeast?
this week i've stripped 100L of FFV in readiness for a big reflux spirit run, which in turn will increase my gin stocks :smile:

i have mashed milled raw wheat to try and get a grey goose type vodka, but using proper mashing techniques.
it's not as easy as other grains due to its high beta-glucan which can make it viscous.

[ginandtonic]

Understood :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Have had a good look at many sites, many vids, and this forum.
Have a couple of questions x_x
After the initial mash( still not 100% sure of temp and time ) - but from what I have found, 63 degrees for an hour should do it ?
I will then sparge.
At this stage is there any point to the boiling process ? or is this more for beer making / adding hops etc ?
Either way...
cool the wort and transfer to fermenter.
take SG
Ph reading ?
add the yeast.
Any suggestions on yeast will be great ?
Pray, and Wait

[bluess57]

Yes an hour mash at 60 odd degrees should be fine. An iodine test will show if conversion is complete.
A cold water sparge would be fine.
In beer making the wort is boiled for hop additions, protein coagulation, sanitization/sterilization
You could boil your wort for sanitization

Why a full grain process if your going to make a neutral/vodka/gin though.

[ginandtonic]

Just trying different things.
I wanted to get away from sugar, as I was advised it was hard to get a good clean neutral with sugar.
Then, I went from sugar to rice, after a trip to a distillery in Japan.
I have been really happy with the results, especially with that you beaut product - yellow label.
Very clean !
My wifes like - why bother with grains - the rice is fantastic.
But there is always room for improvement, and if you never try.......
So here I am - getting confused, and not ( so far ) getting the results I would like.
Ill give this mash a go - put down 2 more 25 litre washes, and see if that increases my yield when I strip it. ( compared to my first strip run - 6l @40% )
Then I'll have about 12 litres of low wines ( hopefully more ) and reflux it, and then I will be able to see if all the fuss gave me a nice bit of gold neutral in the end.
But really, Im after a recipe that will give me a good volume of good quality neutral ( as majority of us would be at some stage ?)
So yes, I will definitely try FFV next time.

[bluc]

O think ylay does a much better job then a sugarhead nothing wrong with it if not setup for full all grain or just dont want the hassle.
I normally work on half weight of grain as fermentable, as a rough rule of thumb i do 40kg grain in 180l no sugar with ylay..
Straight feed store wheat makes nice vodka as opposed to a neutral..

[BigRig]

My first venture into all grain was a bit of a let down yield wise.
Wash was 5 kg wheat ( crushed ), 27 litres of water, 50 grams yellow label.
It fermented out and settled nicely.
There were 2 of these
After draining the 2 fermenters, there was about 46 litres of "wash " which was then " striped"
to leave me with only about 6 litres @40%
This seems low ?
Nut since its my first all grain - maybe its not as low as I think ?
Thoughts please ?
Gin and Tonic

The yield on ylay is low compared to conventional mashing but that is the trade-off for not having to mash. With this stuff i aim for a ratio of roughly 1:4 grain to water. So on a wash of that size i would use 7.5kg ( i use 15kg for a 60L wash).