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Methanol testing

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:36 pm
by Supersmartan
Hello learned distillers

Was just wondering.....on U-Tube lost of people done test for methanol, like blue is ok, red is lead ...no good aso, however
I did my own test to see, low and behold.....mentholated spirits burn ....blue....??? what ?? so does my spirits ...of cause, I know you can't drink it
but that's very confusing.......some one enlighten me Please !!
And yes ....I know how to do cuts and all that, so I don't need a topic on that.....still learning, do more reading than distilling sometimes hm !!!
So what's the answer.......???
Chris

PS: Thanks for a wonderfull......friendly forum.....I have learned so much in ashort time from here, so a heartfelt big THANKS ALL.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:52 pm
by Doubleuj
Don’t believe too much you see on YouTube
Quick answer is that the “metho” you buy nowadays is actually industrial ethanol, so, it should burn with a similar flame as your well cut spirit.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:25 pm
by coffe addict
:text-+1: and I'll add that the store bought has a bittering agent added that's very hard to separate from the ethanol and renders it completely undrinkable

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:51 pm
by db1979
Methylated spirit used to be 95% ethanol with 5% methanol. The methanol was added to deter people from drinking it. In Australia now, just as coffee addict says methylated spirits has a bittering agent, but no methanol. The blue flame colour is characteristic of an oxygen containing fuel burning in air. Methanol and ethanol both contain oxygen and this causes them to burn cleaner than many other organic molecules.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:34 pm
by wynnum1
95% ethanol with 5% methanol if your job used methylated spirits not very pleasant probably why methanol is not being using.As a fuel for transport. fumes give you a headache . would be very unpleasant in heavy traffic.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:18 pm
by Supersmartan
Thanks all

Just wondering, that's all, and yes....U-tube is full of misinformation, however thanks to all

Really really like this forum

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:18 am
by warramungas
wynnum1 wrote:95% ethanol with 5% methanol if your job used methylated spirits not very pleasant probably why methanol is not being using.As a fuel for transport. fumes give you a headache . would be very unpleasant in heavy traffic.


Plus all the numpties that would drink it bittering agent or not. That's dedication to hard core alcoholism!

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:58 pm
by JulianFNQ
db1979 wrote:Methylated spirit used to be 95% ethanol with 5% methanol. The methanol was added to deter people from drinking it. In Australia now, just as coffee addict says methylated spirits has a bittering agent, but no methanol. The blue flame colour is characteristic of an oxygen containing fuel burning in air. Methanol and ethanol both contain oxygen and this causes them to burn cleaner than many other organic molecules.



Actually, the blue fame is hydrogen burning, the yellow flame is carbon burning. Methanol has 1 carbon atom and 4 hydrogen atoms so burns very blue. Ethanol 2 carbon and 6 hydrogen, still burns blue but a bit more yellow going on. As a hydro-carbon is burnt, the hydrogen burns first, then the carbon, because the hydrogen surrounds the carbon. The oxygen has to burn the hydrogen before it can get access to the carbon. The fact that ethanol has oxygen in it makes little difference. However the oxygen in ethanol gives one side of the molecule a positive charge and the other side a negative charge, so the molecules are attracted to each other. That is why ethanol is a liquid and ethane (basically ethanol without the oxygen) is a gas at room temperature.

Yeah got a bit carried away with that...

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:06 pm
by bluc
My spirit burns invisible with hint yellow..and that is nastiest of heads

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:31 am
by ed9362
i gave a chemist friend of mine a sample of foreshots from a kale wash, distilled in a boka.
the sample was the first 100ML that came off the still.
he ran it through a gas chromatograph and couldnt detect any methanol, there were traces of other chemicals but it was almost completely ethanol.
i think people worry about methanol in sugar washes to much. its a good idea to be aware it may be there and discard your foreshots but a fire test isnt going to tell you much at all

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:49 pm
by The Stig
You may well be right but if we start telling people not to worry about it somebody is bound to show up sick as a dog and point the finger .
Best to have best practice’s in place at ALL times.
We are all about the safety of everybody, do what you want.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:13 pm
by RC Al
Theres a ton of this over on HD, there is actually more methanol in the tails of most of our types of washes bar fruit - that stuff is evil in this regard

Methanol is only one of the things we can look to reduce for "healthy" 8-} booze, there's other bad stuff in there too

A current thread on HD that has my attention - the first page is the usual stuff, then it gets interesting after that (and occasionally technical lols)
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 40&t=80533

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:15 pm
by ed9362
The Stig wrote:You may well be right but if we start telling people not to worry about it somebody is bound to show up sick as a dog and point the finger .
Best to have best practice’s in place at ALL times.
We are all about the safety of everybody, do what you want.



maybe i should have been clearer,
i was saying that its a good idea to dispose of your foreshots, but maybe not specifically because of methanol. there are other chemicals in there that are not good for you too.
i am definitely am not advocating for people to be drinking the foreshots or heads of their run.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:48 pm
by Sam.
ed9362 wrote:
The Stig wrote:You may well be right but if we start telling people not to worry about it somebody is bound to show up sick as a dog and point the finger .
Best to have best practice’s in place at ALL times.
We are all about the safety of everybody, do what you want.



maybe i should have been clearer,
i was saying that its a good idea to dispose of your foreshots, but maybe not specifically because of methanol. there are other chemicals in there that are not good for you too.
i am definitely am not advocating for people to be drinking the foreshots or heads of their run.


Yeah it's pretty obvious from smelling the shit isn't good for you 8-}

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:01 pm
by wynnum1
Methanol surprising that it is not being used as a fuel as is water soluble and biodegradable and can be made from natural gas and steam or co2 and could be running some big machinery and not have to bring in diesel.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:49 pm
by bluc
Methanol is a fuel. For race cars :handgestures-thumbupleft: speedway cars and drag cars use it. It also burns a lot cooler and helps cool the motor..

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:02 pm
by wynnum1
bluc wrote:Methanol is a fuel. For race cars :handgestures-thumbupleft: speedway cars and drag cars use it. It also burns a lot cooler and helps cool the motor..

Oil industry probably have a lot to do with not being used and also seems to work very well in gas turbines and could be used for electricity generation.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:50 pm
by OzDistilling
A general determination of the methanol and related higher alcohols in your product can be done with a Permanganate Time test. If done properly and accurately its very accurate, research ASTM D1363 - 06 or ISO 1388-12. If you run the test alongside some reference vodka's (say Belvedere, Absolute and Karloff ((good, bad, shocking)) you will get a good idea of how you rate.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:09 pm
by OzDistilling
ed9362 wrote:i think people worry about methanol in sugar washes to much. its a good idea to be aware it may be there and discard your foreshots but a fire test isn't going to tell you much at all

I agree. Modern sugar wash selected yeasts are profiled for low Methanol production. Using a purposed sucrose wash yeast, proper nutrition and adequate Nitrogen sources, and a temperature controlled ferment will yield low Methanol levels. Methanol is 50 times more toxic to most yeasts than ethanol so the wash usually stalls before it gets out of hand.

The production of the other cogniers (IPA, Acetone, ethyl acetate, Propanol, Acetic Acid, Hex-d-P) is usually in relative proportion to the levels of Methanol. Methanol is generally odorless and tasteless, but these other cogniers are not (case in point acetone, IPA) are many times more pungent, and poisonous. If it smells bad, it will taste bad, and it will give you the hangover from hell.

Ignore the Methanol debate its all old school and mostly unrelated these days.

Concentrate on making a product that has a neutral (or slightly sweetish smell) and a clean taste. Unless your chasing that Soviet Fusel Oil (stolichnaya) style :-)

For amateurs, its costing you cents per litre. Cut hard, cut late and shutdown early. Let your nose do the decision work.

A pro tip. Always taste your samples at 20% ABV at room temp. This will show up all the hidden faults.

Re: Methanol testing

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:48 am
by Tesla101
OzDistilling wrote:
ed9362 wrote:...

A pro tip. Always taste your samples at 20% ABV at room temp. This will show up all the hidden faults.


Thanks for the tips Oz. Tasting at 20% is interesting. I know there's a lot of debate on tasting techniques and I think mostly it comes down to personal preference.

I've tried lots of different methods, but the one that seems to work the best for me is tasting straight off the still. I find I can pick the sweetness of heads easier and then the almost tastelessness of hearts, and then the wet dog of tails. I found that if I tried this after diluting down, the tastes were also diluted and harder to pick up.

But yeah, each to their own...